Wednesday, 29 June 2011

Slimelight Campaign

Now that the protest outside the Sol/6 Comm gig is over, it's time to ask precisely what was achieved. According to supporters of the bands the campaign was a failure because the gig went ahead. It's true that the immediate aim was to get Slimelight management to cancel the event and, since the management didn't budge, you could say that LMHR failed in it's main objective - but that is to look at things from a short-term point of view and to ignore the bigger picture.

I'd expected only a small band of committed anti-racist activists to turn up to leaflet on Saturday, but they were considerably outnumbered by non-aligned people wanting to join the protest. There was even a contingent from the Unitarian Church - hardly the 'antifa thugs' the band's supporters had promised the fans would be there to intimidate them. Throughout the course of the evening a total of about 70-80 people took part in leafleting outside the club, with a maximum of around 50 people present at its peak.

The original plan had been to leaflet only earlier in the evening (to make the point that the event was aimed at convincing users of the club generally and not at confronting those going to the gig specifically), and only at the nearby tube station (Angel). But as people turned up in such large numbers it was considered safe enough to move immediately outside the club. Contrary to the accusations made online that the point was to physically confront the fans, that was never the intention, as had been made plain throughout the campaign.  The idea was only to put it to club-goers that Slimelight was prepared to host events by people with known connections to (various exotic flavours of) racism and fascism, and that they should put pressure on the management by expressing their opposition. In that, the leafleting was certainly successful.

A huge number of leaflets were handed out to members of the public and to people attending Slimelight, and a number of club-goers took extra leaflets to distribute inside the club. The response from most fans was overwhelmingly positive - as might be expected, given that most users of Slimelight are anti-racist and anti-fascist.

There were a definite - though small - group of people who were there because they actively welcomed the presence of Sol Invictus at the club, and were hostile to the protesters (not too vocally hostile, though, as they were so obviously outnumbered). There was another definite minority who were really glad to see something being done at last to address the issues of racism and fascism in the culture generally. Some attendees spoke to the protesters at length, proudly describing themselves as anti-fascists, and a small number even refused to go in to the concert as a result of the protest. Then there were people who could not understand the protest, and argued with the protesters about Sol and the bands, or just wanted to be loyal to the venue, etc. Some of these people couldn't be persuaded, but many could, and a lot of useful discussions and arguments were had without even a hint of intimidation on either side. I hope that those fans who were convinced about the need to take responsibility for what happens in their own clubs find a way to extend the discussions that were had on the night and take them to even more people. In any case, to all of those who were willing to debate and discuss the problem - thanks. It was good to meet you.

To me, simply starting a debate around the issue among the fans is success enough. But you can add to that the fact that at almost the exact point at which this blog published an article about Andrew King's racist and pro-fascist comments in an interview with Michael Moynihan's journal Tyr, King, who was supposed to be performing with Sol that night, was 'mysteriously' dropped from the band. I think it's clear that King was dropped (or resigned - accounts differ) because his presence embarrassed those who had been claiming that the musicians and groups involved had no ongoing relationship to the far right.

About the Online Debate

One aspect of the online discussion of the protest that struck me was how many people seemed interested only in provoking and heightening confrontation. At it's worst this included people posting details of individuals online on various blogs. This seemed to be some kind of deliberate strategy (several of the relevant comments were simultaneously posted to different sites), and not necessarily initiated by partisans in the debate. A number of people submitted comments to this blog naming individuals they thought were 'behind' the blog or the LMHR campaign (actually two entirely separate things, since this blog's contributors took different positions regarding the protest) in order to exacerbate hostility to them. At least one comment submitted provided what was claimed to be the address of one of the musicians involved in the concert. All of these comments were blocked by the blog's administrators. As it is vital to prevent - let's call them - 'certain interested parties' from stoking up confrontation (in order to justify their own intervention?), we're going to be more active in future in blocking anything inflammatory, or any directly personal attacks, on the blog.

74 comments:

  1. "At it's worst this included people posting details of individuals online on various blogs."
    Yeah, I seem to remember some blog or other posting a load of details and photos of individuals connected to some gig at Slimelight recently, pretty terrible behavior if you ask me...

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  2. I am told someone involved in the protest was heard chanting the likes of "If you want to see Adolf Hitler on Stage - go to Slimelight!" Does anyone have any thoughts on this kind of babyish, nonsensical and so obviously counterproductive behavior, or how we might help prevent it in future protests?

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  3. "One aspect of the online discussion of the protest that struck me was how many people seemed interested only in provoking and heightening confrontation."

    - WELCOME TO THE INTERNET.

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  4. 'Contrary to the accusations made online that the point was to physically confront the fans, that was never the intention, as had been made plain throughout the campaign.'

    Incorrect. Fans were physically confronted by (frustrated?) protestors, yelling 'are you a f***ing nazi' via a loudspeaker to anyone one who dared cross their picket line, while using the classic intimidatory tactic of taking photos - something which, oddly enough, they tried to stop anyone doing to them. They eventually got moved on by the police - a contradiction of your claim that protestors were not using direct physical confrontation. Again, you discredit good points by whitewashing the facts.

    'There was even a contingent from the Unitarian Church - hardly the 'antifa thugs' the band's supporters had promised the fans would be there to intimidate them.'

    Again, incorrect on the last point. Threats had indeed been made on the now removed 'No to Nazi Bands in Islington' Facebook page (which were in fact surprisingly underplayed by the bands and their supporters). The London Antifa groups had already distanced themselves from this protest, with good reason it appears. I never saw any insinuations from any supporters of this concert that anyone attending was in danger - only the opposition were claiming that.

    'Some attendees spoke to the protesters at length, proudly describing themselves as anti-fascists, and a small number even refused to go in to the concert as a result of the protest.'

    There were also protestors that engaged with the band members - in most cases, they were obviously not remotely informed to substantiate anything beyond that was written on their leaflet (or even the contents of that); and who looked embarrassed at being politely asked for proof from those they were accusing of being nazis. Not one person questioned had ever listened to a single song from any of the bands on the bill - how is that 'informed'? One wonders what any of them who had actually made it through to watch the Sol Invictus set - which largely appeared to be sad love songs, songs about various birdlife (crows, ravens etc), and in fact a pro-union song ('Black Leg Miner') - would have felt upon learning how much of their protest was chimerically pointless.

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  5. Strelnikov, your "short-term point of view" and "ignore the bigger picture" pleas are classic back-pedalling. Your friends and yourself failed. Let's not loose sight of that basic fact and try to spin it in a positive direction - the main, stated purpose of the protest was a failure.

    The "debate around the issue among the fans" has been going on since the whole genre began and you give them no credit at all for original or critical thought. You did not start it, it's been going on long before you even heard of it. It's just that for many, the debate has been settled. This blog has form raking over the coals of old arguments.

    Now that the concert went ahead I'm still interested in knowing how the claims that it presented a danger to the local community can be proven. That was something this article didn't seem to mention - apparently having "nazi" groups play in this town was going to cause unrest of some kind. The only unrest that occurred seemed to have come from protesters yelling at concert go-ers. Where was the "racism and fascism" that LMHR wanted to stop? In what way did your protest "keep (your) streets racist free"? Or is this all part of your "bigger picture" that no one can substantiate?

    Here's the thing - your friends, allies and yourself have wasted your time. You achieved nothing positive, nothing of substance and certainly not your goals. My question is now, are you ready to learn from your mistakes and move on to doing something more constructive with your time? To confront racism is a laudable goal and one that requires real effort, but you have to first truly identify your opponents. Bands like Sol Invictus and others are not your, or anyone else's, enemies. There are serious enemies within your communities and ruling your communities and your society who require serious effort and strategy to counter. Are you up for that challenge?

    If not, you are only posing when you claim to be opposed to racism.

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  6. any arguments about the protest notwithstanding (i'm in the US and wouldn't know), give us some fucking credit for intelligence here...'songs about various birdlife'? am i being an unreasonable Communist bully in suggesting the presence of metaphor?

    because i think you might be referring to 'raven chorus,' among others, a track which appears on the first Sol LP "Against the Modern World," the one with the Nazi bassist whose parts were supposedly re-recorded and who at any rate has been all but written out of the group's history despite unequivocal evidence that he was there...all this in 1988, mind, a little less than 20 years before Wakeford's "haven't been involved or interested for 20 years or more" statement - a bit liberal, or maybe he's just bad with arithmetic...

    so i suppose by the same token, Above the Ruins' "Songs of the Wolf" (just to be sure, is anyone still trying to claim that's not a fucked-up, racist record? speak now or forever hold your peace) is a record about...wolves? and 'stormclouds over europe,' off that one, is about meteorology? why look any deeper, right, we're really just hedging hairs if we do so...

    you see, i'm not uninformed, i actually quite like a lot of these bands' music...i'm exceedingly familiar with Death in June and while less so with Sol i do have copies (legit, full packages with liner information, even) of "Sol Veritas Lux" and "Lex Talionis" - they're pretty good records!

    i'm glad i didn't pay for them, though, because everything i've read that tony wakeford has actually said about his reprehensible past affiliations is completely unconvincing and, aside from the somewhat-short-of-political "defense" of having a Jewish wife, points to nothing concrete IN THE LEAST.

    so he can embarrass well-intentioned activists all he wants (if he is indeed one of the performers you refer to doing so above) - people who have taken their own time and energy and put themselves in a rather uncomfortable situation both physically and socially because they CARE ENOUGH ABOUT PEOPLE to do so, but he hasn't stood up much better to rigorous questioning at all...

    reading the interview excerpt someone posted in a comments section here where he addresses his two degrees of David Myatt via Richard Moult was probably the least convincing thing yet - funny how many words someone can say when they're taken off guard, and yet impart so little...

    the funny thing about all this is that, months ago, before i knew this blog existed, my friend sent me an email that the Slimelight gig had been announced, half-seriously proposing that we travel to London to attend. and my first reaction was 'support Freya Aswynn? no fucking way' because i was appalled reading the things she said about black opera singer Willard White...so yeah, i didn't need this blog to put my hackles up about these acts, being a fan was reason enough, and i'm sure i'm not alone...anyone with half a brain who wants to give these guys the benefit of the doubt will have a harder and harder time the more they learn...

    and if you don't think racism--closeted or otherwise--is problematic, continuing to debate here is pointless, no?

    JS

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  7. 'Raven Chorus' wasn't performed on Saturday night, and nor was anything else from 'Songs of the Wolf'. The point is that there is a factual disconnect between what is still endlessly flogged to death on here and Sol Invictus as a band today, as anyone who actually attended the gig would have realised.

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  8. i thought it likely that 'raven chorus,' being an early track, wouldn't have been played...i simply brought it up as the first instance to hand of Sol's recurring use of animal symbolism, heraldic imagery, etc - MY point being that anyone with the most casual relationship to the arts and letters would recognize that 'songs about various birdlife,' as with any literary work, probably have more going on than what's on the surface

    and yes, i know material from "Songs of the Wolf" isn't, and maybe never was, performed live

    there's no 'factual disconnect,' i'm afraid, just a disagreement as to the pertinence of the various facts verified time and again on this blog

    as a fan of the music and someone well-read in the band's history, interviews, etc, i don't know what watching their 45-minute set would have made me realize...that they have a strong fanbase? that they are completely unwilling to address any of the relevant concerns from the stage?

    i never imagined the show would be a Nazi convergence, i simply have accepted that Wakeford is an unaccountable figure who is quite possibly supportive of radically racist causes in his personal life, causes that would be helped along by his widespread acceptance and record sales among apolitical audiences

    as someone who thinks that even esoteric, 'nutjob' right-wingery is a very real threat on various levels to not only people of color, but our society as a whole, i am in support of bringing these connections to the attention of the uninformed - a group to whom the majority of Sol's listener base belongs, i would guess?

    JS

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  9. Just Another Comment30 Jun 2011, 13:58:00


    The "debate around the issue among the fans" has been going on since the whole genre began and you give them no credit at all for original or critical thought. You did not start it, it's been going on long before you even heard of it. It's just that for many, the debate has been settled. This blog has form raking over the coals of old arguments.


    I don't know about Strel, but I don't give many of them that much credit for critical thought, since I rarely ever see it exercised. There are a few neofolk fans who are outright racists, who deserve no credit for anything, and the rest don't exhibit any critical thought on these matters since most of them seem largely unaware of the issues. They listen to the music, don't recognize any of the symbols or themes for what they are, and don't really frequent any online discussions about this music so they get no real exposure to the discussions on this topic.

    Of course, I'm surprised that neofolk defenders here have not tried to defend Freya Aswynn's campaign against an opera singer who offended her by being black.

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  10. "The point is that there is a factual disconnect between what is still endlessly flogged to death on here and Sol Invictus as a band today..."
    Abso-fuckin'-lutely. I've had enough of the whining of know-nowts and the "useful idiots" — the real ones — who got sucked into playing the games of a few vindictive pranksters and malcontents. I mean, this has been little more than a neo-Marxist show trial with Google representing the prosecution. WIth a good deal of, let's say, "creative imagination" mixed in.
    But I don't intend to be a devil's advocate by stating the following: those who — for whatever personal reasons — have heavily invested their identities and/or career in fighting "racism" and "fascism" will, in the absence of clear and present danger, tend to find reasons for inventing it. And there are always those — like a certain half-serious Heglian — who prefer to only start the kind of fights they think they can walk away from unscathed.

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  11. JS - The songs 'Bad Luck Bird' and the traditional folk song 'Twa Corbies' were performed on the night - make of that birdlife what you will. And the band did address the relevant concerns, standing side by side with the promoter when she read out her statement before their set, which couldn't have been more unequivocably anti-racist and anti-fascist. Regarding the Sol listener base being uninformed, perhaps many of them are, but those attending the concert certainly were not after all the controversy. And I saw far more ethnically diverse people inside - after they'd read the protestors' leaflets, remember - than I did outside. Their last German concert incidentally was supported by 'Love Music Hate Fascism' - apart from speaking for itself, this is a country that would hardly tolerate empty whitewashing.

    I do suggest you read some *recent* interviews with Wakeford where he states his current position all too clearly. The point of this blog, or so I thought, was to expose genuine present day fascist danger - if this were the case with Sol, why did all authorities including the police give it the green light, after investigation? This increasingly just comes across as a tired old witch-hunt.

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  12. @Red Parrot: what was the "factual disconnect" in the article about Andrew King? I would have thought the King interview alone would have been enough to prove the claim that members of Sol Invictus had links with fascist ideologues. That is only a 'factual disconnect' if you believe that King's statements were not supportive of fascism, but none of the group's supporters argued that; so it was actually them who chose to ignore the facts.

    @Anon: Can you point me toward information about the 'Love Music Hate Fascism' organisation that Sol played for? I have asked this several times here without getting a response. I'd like to know the details about the organisation and the gig.

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  13. Just Another Comment30 Jun 2011, 14:55:00

    And I saw far more ethnically diverse people inside - after they'd read the protestors' leaflets, remember - than I did outside.

    I wonder what Freya Aswynn thought of that? Or does she only object when non-whites intrude on her particular brand of theistic nonsense?

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  14. @Strelnikov - The poster has been reproduced quite a few times on the relevant Facebook pages. You've probably not had a response because people deduce - quite reasonably, from your output on here - that you are quite capable of finding it for yourself.

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  15. @Anon: can you link me to any recent interviews where he goes into more detail than the 2007 statement on his website? i've not seen any aside from the excerpt i mention above that someone posted here where he talks about David Myatt

    thanks,
    JS

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  16. "an unaccountable figure" - all human beings should unaccountable

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  17. As for the LMHR/Sol Invictus gig, all I've seen of that is a small lo-res picture on the Slimelight Facebook page about this whole shebang. Looks like crap Photoshop to me and hardly evidence for something less than credible.

    Mind you, I did come into work on Tuesday to find a Sol/6 Comm flyer for the gig by the till. Had I not taken the weekend off work, I could have flung them out the shop on their arses. Can't get the staff...

    Keep up the good work, Strelnikov, no pasaran!

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  18. "As for the LMHR/Sol Invictus gig, all I've seen of that is a small lo-res picture on the Slimelight Facebook page about this whole shebang. Looks like crap Photoshop to me and hardly evidence for something less than credible." - So... you're saying you.... don't believe the gig actually happened!?!?!

    Wow talk about credibility, you're certainly not lending any to the cause and it really could do with some at this point! :(

    Where do you work? I've got some flyers to put out.

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  19. @Majordomo - OK, you poo-poo a major statement of intent by the band and nullifying of this argument because the poster may or may not be 'crap Photoshop'. Is that the best you can do? (Or are you implying that it has been invented, which would be even more pitiful?)

    @JS - In an interview for Asgard Root magazine, Tony was asked the following:
    'How have you evolved, politically since you disentangled yourself from the National Front and indeed before then your Socialist involvements? Would it be fair to say that you see the world (and particularly England) in a pretty sorry state and have tried the various divergent extremes as a potential remedy to the chaos and have now realized the faults with both? In which ways are you still fascist and in which are you socialist? Would you describe yourself as a cynic?'

    He replied: 'Well, if you try nicking my chips, I will annex your Sudetenland land, and as yet Prophecy seem unconvinced by my idea of turning it into a workers co-op with me as treasurer.

    I think evolving means I am cynical, I am pessimistic, and I am grumpy. However, I am not a Nazi, a Fascist or a racist. Not sure if it can be said any clearer. Nazism , Communism and Racism should be the full stops of the last century. Give me Camus, any day.'

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  20. The poster doesn't answer the questions I asked.

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  21. @Strelnikov - perhaps it's ironic that you of all people involved in this debate seem to be unable to do your own research in regards to this point. And if/when you do find what you are after, you will move the goalposts yet again. Isn't the fact that it is clearly written across the concert poster enough for you? Evidently not.

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  22. One topic not raised in the post above summing up the campaign is the withdrawal of Peter Sotos from the October Slimelight bill. An earlier post concerning him claimed:

    "The arguments around Sotos are different to those about Sol Invictus - while the content of his work is much more extreme, the political context is more complex. I mention him not because I think it is problematic in the same way, but because it too raises complex issues about what is and isn't acceptable. My point is that I find it completely irresponsible to take the position that any and all art should be welcomed just because it's called 'art'."

    A response in the comments section stated: "I'm no fan of the music or politics of most people discussed here but it now seems clear that the direct result of the site, whatever its creators' intentions, has been to help create new and more secure modes of hegemonic discourse and to ensure the further exclusion and pathologisation of troublesome voices such as Sotos."

    It would be interesting to hear Strelnikov or any other supporters of the campaign address this issue.

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  23. Oh wait, sorry Majordomo, your post was so addled and badly written that I thought you were somehow implying that the Slimelight gig's roaring success was faked, or possibly talking about the flyer about it. Now I realise that you were talking about the afforementioned German gig which indeed is only evidenced by a low rez flyer image and I guess you can tell it was photoshop because of the pixels and from having seen some 'shops in your time. My apologies.

    "hardly evidence for something less than credible" is still near-gibberish tho.

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  24. OK guys this might help. Let's not get into moon-hoax type logic in this debate... screaming 'photoshop' at anything you don't like without actually researching the reality of it is no good for anyone.

    http://stadtleben.de/mainz/kalender/2010/08/26/dark-ambiente-special-live/

    http://www.lastfm.de/event/1578983+Sol+Invictus+at+Alexander+The+Great+on+26+August+2010

    So that gig it did happen, and did have that flyer. I guess it's possible that's more of a slogan than a specific organisation but yes, it says Love Music Hate Fascism and has something in german which i vaguely understand to be about people in dubious political garb won't be allowed in.

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  25. @Anon: thanks for that. I was trying to work out who or what the organisation 'Love Music Hate Fascism' is - it's not related in any way to 'Love Music Hate Racism'. Google turns up several organisations, blogs, etc., with that title, but I've not been able to connect any of them to the gig. Sol fans may not believe it, but I'm interested to know if it's a reputable organisation, and, if so, on what basis they vet bands, etc.

    From the comments on one of those pages it looks as though Andrew King played the gig. Clearly whoever LMHF are they don't consider him 'politically incorrect' (as they put it) despite his racist lyrics, his opposition to 'rights' politics, to multiculturalism, his association with Moynihan, Tyr, radical traditionalism, etc., etc.. I'm not sure I can take seriously an 'anti-fascist' organisation which considers King to be politically sound. I guess the argument is that since they wrote 'Love Music hate Fascism' on the posters, anyone who plays at the gig cannot be a fascist.

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  26. Andrew King is no longer in Sol Invictus, so any further discussion on him in relation to the band is a moot point. And this statement was released on the band's Facebook page earlier today:

    'The Slimelight gig on June 25th was a successful and enjoyable night, and we would like to give our thanks and respect to Gaya, Patrick and the Slimelight management for putting the event on, and for standing up for diversity and tolerance in the face of a barrage of lies and unfounded attacks.
    Sol Invictus would like to state publicly that as a band and as individuals we are not interested in working with anyone who seeks to promote the glorification or rehabilitation of any of the murderous totalitarian ideologies that blighted the 20th century. Neither do we have any sympathy with "national anarchism", or any desire to work with its adherents.
    All members of Sol Invictus are personally completely and unequivocally opposed to fascism, racism, anti-semitism and homophobia, and as a band we have absolutely no wish to promote these or any ideologies rooted in intolerance or hatred. We do not propagate these values through our music or imagery, and our work makes no attempt to appeal to an audience looking for this kind of message.
    Concerted efforts to polarise the Slimelight event or get it cancelled came to nothing - they merely showed that the various campaigns ultimately had little support, and that there were no legal, moral or public order justifications for it being shut down. We deplore the inflammatory and irresponsible tactics used by the campaigns' organisers which potentially endangered the safety of audience members, Slimelight staff, artists and local people. Sol Invictus do not wish to see this music scene used as a recruiting ground by any political faction, or as a cover for fostering bigotry and hate. We do not believe in witch-hunts, public denunciations, censorship and campaigns of deliberate misinformation, so will not be employing the methods so beloved by our opponents. But we will gladly dissociate ourselves from anyone we know to be supporting or condoning agendas of intolerance or hate.'

    Game over, chaps.

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  27. "I guess the argument is that since they wrote 'Love Music hate Fascism' on the posters, anyone who plays at the gig cannot be a fascist. "

    - well it certainly beats the argument that since some random blogger has decided you are a fascist then you were, are and ever will be a fascist and no amount of evidence to the contrary can ever get you off the hook... right?

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  28. Andrew King isn't a "fascist". He's libertarian, mainly, and I think it unfair to pin the label "ideologue" on him. He's pretty open-minded (if you've heard his bizarre noise album with Brown Sierra, Thalassocracy, you'd get a feel for it.) I recently queried him about the TYR interview and his comment on "rootless cosmopolitans" — KIng is, in fact, referring to the type of personalities behind projects such as the EU. UKIP say the same. Marxist friends of mine (to my surprise) also have the same understanding of the phrase. No doubt some people use it as shorthand for "Jews". But King doesn't.
    Another point which I didn't pick up on originally is that the TYR interview was, in fact, originally conducted in 1998 for a European music mag that folded before the interview was published. It then made its way to two other publications that folded before publication, eventually being passed by one of the former editors to Moynihan's TYR journal, and was then published for the first time, with a few updates. King's animus towards "relativism, multiculturalism, rights-issues and cosmopolitanism", pungent as it is, was largely derived from his earlier experience of attempting to do research into English vernacular culture at the British Library, only to find, to his dismay, that funding was being instead directed towards cultural products of entirely different continents.
    Yes, he's a traditionalist — that's nothing to be ashamed of. Shame for your history and origins may sit well with neo-Marxist cultural struggle, but it's no virtue in my book. "Anti-racist" organisations think they have a monopoly on opposing 'intolerance", yet do not seem to regard some of their own ignorant extravagances as possibly intolerant. This is a common and depressing form of hubris.

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  29. Red Parrot - your spirited defence of Andrew
    King is admirable, in a way... (are you Andrew King by any chance?) but whoever recorded that version of "Wotan Rains..." is clearly a vile bloke, even if he thinks he's being "ironic" (just listen to it FFS). Even Sol Invictus seemed to have realised that. He's going to get some funny looks at the very least next time he tries out a floor spot at the Musical Traditions Club. He's a bad egg, and I'm bloody glad this website has exposed him.

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  30. @ Morris — That's the second time I've been asked on this blog if I'm Andrew King. It's a sign of the myopia of the type of person I allude to above that if just one person sticks up for an artist they respect, the political troglodytes somehow imagine that the only person who would do so is the artist themselves. Odd. But quite understandable if you factor in the fact that such hostile critics don't know anything about the music scene they're "exposing". King has no need of my support — he has many loyal fans, and I'm sure hardly any of them know about WMTN. But I know what the crowd in the rest of Europe is like, and they don't take any notice of campaigns like this.
    I've heard much neo-folk in my line of work ( journalism) and I find most of it tedious, so I wouldn't generally call myself an enthusiast, but I felt motivated to waste my time commenting on WMTN as I believed much of what was being written was poorly digested, disingenuous twaddle. I even felt sorry for Tony Wakeford and felt a twinge of indignation on his behalf.
    But Morris, your comments only tell me about your prejudices and your personal opinions. You're entitled to them, of course, although you clearly don't extend basic level-headed tolerance to people you disagree with. You are a typical sociopath. Throughout this little campaign, the bands and promoters have deported themselves with dignity, but many spitting, smearing fools who marshalled to oppose them were, very often, rabid, ignorant and shameless. I know who the "bad eggs" are Morris, and typically they can't smell their own stink.

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  31. @red parrot

    " I recently queried him about the TYR interview and his comment on "rootless cosmopolitans" — KIng is, in fact, referring to the type of personalities behind projects such as the EU. UKIP say the same. Marxist friends of mine (to my surprise) also have the same understanding of the phrase.

    UKIP have been very keen to distance themselves from the anti-semitism and racism of other parts of the far right, so I would be amazed if they have actually used this phrase. Do you have any examples?

    Ditto marxists - I've only ever seen "rootless cosmopolitan" used by the left to refer to anti-semitism. Indeed it would be very weird for marxists to use the phrase "rootless" as of course the working class has no country.

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  32. The thing is, unless you're the Daily Mail then it's OK or even sometimes GREAT that an artist be 'vile'. You guys need to totally separate your personal aesthetic/pseudo-moral dislikes from your political views if you are to be in any way effective at the objectives you claim to have, ie fighting real fascism and racism. The moment you mix the occasional valid political point with mockery and derision of the work of the artists you are questioning, and personal insults and slander directed at them and their fans, you have already worse than lost the 'argument' if there even ever was one.

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  33. Anyone know why the 'No to Nazi Bands in Islington' facebook event was deleted?

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  34. "Game Over?" - well, I don't know, but it seems to me that this blog, along with a number of other groups, have asked Tony Wakeford to explain his relationship with, or distance himself from, various far-Right individuals and tendencies. He now seems to have done so in a statement that goes beyond anything that I am aware of him having made on the subject before, and specifically rejects Southgate's 'national anarchism'. I think this clarification should certainly be welcomed. I suspect that it'll be a very long time before you hear the like from Douglas P. or Boyd Rice. But we wouldn't have this clarification if the issue hadn't been raised, here and elsewhere

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  35. @Anon: Agreed - it's the clearest statement TW has ever made, and something he can be held to.

    ReplyDelete
  36. The evil Boyd Rice in London a few weeks ago —

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlkzf3EwXgA

    When he says "Seinfeld", is he really saying . . . Jews?

    Or am I taking the pith?

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  37. I guess now that Boyd Rice tries to reinvent himself as a noise artist his strategy is to try to play down his activities from the past. In the “back to mono“-interview he claims more or less that his bad reputation was just because a bunch of hippies in San Francisco considered everybody a Nazi who was different (“If you had a girlfrind you were homophobic, if you liked Reagan you were a fascist“). A similar observation could be made concerning the long interview that was recently published here: http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2011/05/a-conversation-with-boyd-rice.html. He says the following thing about his “chat“ with
    Tom Metger:

    "There is a point in your interview in which you seem to make the point that industrial music is racialist music, or white music.

    BR: Industrial music is not racialist. I think that what I said was that someone in Europe wrote an article in which he stated that industrial music was the only form of 20th century music that didn't have roots in black music or negro spirituals or something like that. Even that's not strictly true. You've got surf music, heavy metal, lounge music, exotica, and so on ad infinitum. Even Motown doesn't have roots in negro spirituals. I think the point the author was making was that industrial music was largely unrelated to any pre-existing tradition, and certainly not to rock and roll. I've made the same point myself repeatedly. Rock music today uses the same three or four chords that were used in "Louie Louie", by Chuck Berry. And most of it is lame. But then, 95% of everything is lame.

    What was your impression of Tom Metzger?

    BR: I won't lie to you, he was very intelligent, very well read, and very charming. In other words, he was a textbook example of a high dominance male. I've met many such people in the course of my life, Charlie Manson for example. You don't have to agree with or condone all of their thoughts or actions to find them fascinating. And for better of worse, I've been fascinated by the extremist fringe for literally most of my adult life, if not going back to my childhood. I find Stalin more compelling than Mother Teresa and Eva Peron more compelling than Hillary Clinton. So do most people. If you were in prison and had the choice of reading a biography of Lady Di or The Marquis de Sade, which would you choose? The question answers itself.“

    The part about industrial as “racialist“ music is revealing. Everybody who's watched the video will surely have got the impression that at that time Rice tried to sell industrial music as racialist music to this “high dominance male“. But I feel that his defenders might say it was all just a prank - as there are even people around here who think you can publish the collected writings of some dyed-in-the-wool neonazi without trying to spread his ideas. Having said that, I think that Moyniham is much more interested in ideology than Rice ever was.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Red Parrot said: "I recently queried him about the TYR interview and his comment on "rootless cosmopolitans" — KIng is, in fact, referring to the type of personalities behind projects such as the EU. UKIP say the same. Marxist friends of mine (to my surprise) also have the same understanding of the phrase. No doubt some people use it as shorthand for "Jews". But King doesn't."

    Two words in response to that:

    Bollocks.

    and

    Bollocks.

    In fact, such an absurd defence it made me laugh. You're not very au fait with the euphemistic vernacular of post-war Western fascism are you?

    I suppose 'one-worlders' means back-packers and 'international financiers' is a term for Traveller's Cheques?

    You are either digging a greater hole for yourself by every posting or just fucking dense as lead.

    Still, wouldn't surprise me if UKIP members swap such banter with an ironic eyebrow raised and i'm similarly intrigued to hear your sources...

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  39. What on earth is unreasonable in what Boyd Rice said in his interview?
    For Christ's sake — loosen your belt, shut your trap and live a little. We'll all be dead sooner or later — ideology won't save you from that fate.

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  40. @Red Parrot – you really are quite ridiculous.

    Andrew King attempted “to do research into English vernacular culture at the British Library, only to find, to his dismay, that funding was being instead directed towards cultural products of entirely different continents”. Well, boo hoo – perhaps the former BNP ‘bookshop’ in Welling would have better served his singular purpose. There are passions, and there are ways of making one’s hobbies self-supporting. In my considerable academic and professional experience, it’s never a clear-cut case of “either/or”, so kindly desist from painting King as some kind of ‘race martyr’.

    “Shame for your history and origins may sit well with neo-Marxist cultural struggle” – well, many would prefer the term ‘consciense’, and choose to take a more balanced view of shifting geo-politics. Your rhetoric is pure ‘Monday Club’ myopia, and as such, you do King no favours.

    “Hostile critics don’t know anything about the music scene they’re exposing” – well, here you do virtually every contributor to this debate (both pro and anti) a grave disservice. There’s little that remains veiled – the only variables are the degree of gullibility and faux naivete necessary to keep the neo-folk initiative afloat.King’s conversion to racial elitism didn’t occur overnight, when his precious ‘funding’ was withdrawn – it taps into a reactionary cultural drift which has been formenting since the late 1960s. Do King and Co. represent the Aeolian harp, or the wind which blows through it – that is the question.

    “Throughout this little campaign, the bands and promoters have deported themselves with dignity”. I daresay that every reader will have his or her own favourite howler with which to disprove this piece of pomposity –but I shall restrict myself to one despicable smear in particular – the continual denigration of Karl Blake (a scene ‘insider’ for many years, and one uniquely placed to reveal the grubby underbelly of this ‘heroic’ music form) as ‘mentally ill’, ‘retarded’ and – on another forum visited by a recognisable contributor to this blog, ‘autistic’. Your moral superiority really is profoundly misplaced.

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  41. I think Wakefords comments may work against him in the long run. It may protect his goth record sales, but making statements like that to the largely racialist fan base of post-industrial will alienate many people. Though his reputation in that regard is already shoddy, so these remarks are the nails in the coffin.
    These campaigns may have a polarizing effect with in post-industrial culture. I could see it embolding people on either side of the matter.

    All of the people who just merely enjoy the naughtiness of it all may end up backed into a corner. Which again is a big appeal of this type of music for many people. Many folks enjoy dabbling in the tabboo of fascism, racialism, etc. but have no solid opinions on the matter on a political level.

    As the world falls apart further and further it won't be the rock stars they heed.

    -Oneiric Imperium

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  42. I disagree with O.I. I think in the short term they may loose a handful of people who, also taking into account Sol's breaking with Cold Spring, they don't want anyway. In the long run, they will gain a more diverse and possibly larger audience. Caroline and Lesley have been in the group for 5-6 years if I'm correct, and although I partly agree with the suggestions here that TW's conversion has been more late-coming and gradual than he would like to admit, at least on a 'friends' level, it is very likely that these (lesbian and Jewish arguments aside) people (who allegedly has a past as socialists and union activists etc) and who seem generally sound to me, have influenced him for the better. If there are still some doubts, it would nonetheless be the strategically right decision to really welcome Sol's repeated (there were many on the LMHR event page) distancing from the far-right, and erase any doubts that they and their fans might have about who the good guys are. While retaining a critical eye on things of course, and if any more doubt arises, meet them in a reasonable way.

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  43. Ok, had enough of this childish crap? The name of this site 'who makes the nazis' is referencing the famous fall track of the same name right?

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  44. @ anonymous — "In my considerable academic and professional experience . . ."
    Experience? Do you serve meals in a community college, or mop the floors in ULU?
    I shouldn't be too cynical though — the frothing mouth and mental myopia that you've displayed is probably de rigueur in what passes for "academia" nowadays.

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  45. Just Another Comment2 Jul 2011, 17:24:00

    What on earth is unreasonable in what Boyd Rice said in his interview?

    The venue where it was conducted is unreasonable, for one.

    Two, implying that industrial music is 'racialist' is pretty mind numbingly dimwitted, and would elicit some lulz from all the non-white Industrial fans outt there, as well as all the anti-racist industrial fans out there.

    Let me be perfectly clear. Anyone who is a 'racialist'/racist is stupid. S-T-U-P-I-D. They're free to be as stupid as they like, but I'm entirely free to make fun of them and call them idiots. Not to mention throw the entire apparatus of science at them.

    I would LOVE to see Rice try and debate someone like Michael Shermer, James Randi, or PZ Myers. Rice would run out of the room crying before it was done.

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  46. Just Another Comment2 Jul 2011, 17:33:00

    It may protect his goth record sales, but making statements like that to the largely racialist fan base of post-industrial will alienate many people.

    Good. I will gleefully laugh at them as they are forced in to even further displeasure and alienation.

    The most amusing thing bout you is that you freely admit the racist ignorance of 'post-industrial' fanbabies. I think you are possibly the only defender of this stuff who comments here that is not trying to hide it behind very weak excuses.

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  47. @ Just Another Comment — The venue where the interview in question was conducted isn't unreasonable — it was Camden Roundhouse. This is Boyd in 2011, not 1985, we're talking about.
    Incidentally, I know you wide-eyed true believers are eager to spread the new evangel of "anti-racism", but I suggest you start with the: blacks, Chinese, Japanese, South Asians and Jews. All of these people (the vast majority of the world's population) don't give a fig for your notions of "anti racism" — they are naturally xenophobic.
    Maybe leave the white, middle-aged noise musicians till later, yeah?

    ReplyDelete
  48. Wakeford has said this, Wakeford has said that - excuse me, what about the fact that the man has a proven history of lying? [in print, if proof is required].
    Wakeford really is the 'Man who cried Wolf Age'.
    It is quite possible that some of the people in the band are merely believing what he is telling them. Of course, it is possible that his nasty, mean-spirited racist right-wing self is all in the past. However, he seems to have conned quite a few people over the years, who is to say he still isn't doing so?. Why also are all these people so keen to believe him?
    Doesn't anyone else see that the dumping ['no witchhunts, mind'] of Cold Spring cannot be such a financial wrench - for the fact is that they now have the Prophecy Label releasing the current and back catalogue.
    Consider also that this is an action that has waited at least four years to happened - what is different now with Cold Spring that means that this is the right moment to say 'enough is enough?' - after all, didn't Wakeford make oblique reference to not liking everything on the label in his 2007 interview with Peter Webb? Is it really just cynical money-chasing?. Why have the group not seen fit to say properly what exactly it is that they don't like about Cold Spring?. If, as Wakeford said as a humorous aside on facebook it relates to H.E.R.R. why can't he just say so properly in the groups statement?. Surely Wakeford and his group members should be making a stand against people they find abhorrent - as he did about David Myatt - for the good of their fans if no one else. If they know some groups or individuals are politically unsound - shouldn't they be warning others? [note, I say warning - that doesn't mean 'forcing' or 'holding a gun to their head']. Troy Southgate is a self-admitted National Anarchist and at the head of the New Right with his BNP buddy, Jonathan Bowden. Why can't they say that this is who it is about? are they afraid of hurting their sales figures? or does Troy know things about Wakeford that he doesn't want revealed?. Southgate himself has seen fit to defend Wakeford on this very forum in the past - isn't this action by Sol Invictus just the teensiest bit disloyal - is that why no names are named?

    ReplyDelete
  49. Part 1
    "The most amusing thing bout you is that you freely admit the racist ignorance of 'post-industrial' fanbabies. I think you are possibly the only defender of this stuff who comments here that is not trying to hide it behind very weak excuses."

    In America people involved with post-industrial culture are coming from a different angle and don't feel the need to hide behind art ambiguity because we don't have any direct ties with the goth/industrial scene. Hell I have more direct ties with the squatter scene and undergrond hip-hop then I do goth stuff (A guy I do graffiti with is involved in underground hip-hop, a lot of which I like actually).

    Oddly enough no one I know from underground hip-hop has any issue with anything that I have to say. The guy in question who writes and raps under the name Slave 1 aka Sone, is a Mexican and isn't bothered by my views. Here's some paintings me, him and my girl friend did-
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/45016574@N03/5197724866/in/photostream

    I attended an art event he contributed to of Mexican day of the day art at a Hispanic community center earrlier this year. I thought it was cool because he was mixing the traditional themes of his volk with his graffiti style. Its not like I started using candy skulls in my art or that he started using runes in his.

    People can appreciate each others cultures while still maintaining the a certain distance that preserves the boundries and form of these cultures. I'm not on the far right, no a reactionary bigot. I have never had a discussion with a non-white person who was offended by what I had to say (remember while I'm in Michigan now, I've spent most of my life in Philadelphia, one of the least white cities in America).

    ReplyDelete
  50. Part 2
    When I played a show in NYC with awen, cult of youth and luftwaffe, Justin Ordnung(Genocide Lolita) and I had an honest and frank conversation with a black fan of oneiric imperium and he was not offended by what we had to say. He even later on contacted me on myspace and thanked me for saying this in my heathen harvest interview-

    "If there were more parallel ethnocentric counter-cultural movements, such as say for example, if black kids started making weird Yoruba based music and built a community for themselves around it, I would completely get behind it. I wish all groups of people to divide and preserve their unique heritage. We may not get along, but Capitalism is the real enemy. Respect for peoples differences is leaving them alone! Free Tibet, Free Azatlan, Free Palestine and certainly Free Vinland!"

    I'd love to do a joint musical effort with 5%ers or people involved with Azatlan. I've thought about approaching the guys from lost children of babylon before, who I tend to think of as the black oneiric imperium. I'm not against non-whites. I just don't buy into the cultural Marxist idea that whiteness is a political construct to exploit non-whites.

    The appeal of the atavistic is not rational I freely admit. But when neo-folk is done right you feel white, you feel plugged into a sense of collective identity and history. Yes the atavistic is highly subjective and why some people ressonate with it while others don't, I don't know.

    David Williams and I one time went to get a bottle of wine on our to dinner at a friends house. In the liquor store we saw a bottle of ravenswood wine and because of the logo we knew immediately what to get-
    http://www.ravenswoodwinery.com/#

    It became a standard wine at events at germ books. Everyone we knew also was drawn to the logo. One night the indie coffee shop next door had an art event while germ was also having an art event. At the coffee shop there was display of photos and paintings of bicycles, you know not suprising of urban lefty crowds.

    Back at germ I was complaining about the bicycle art (I really hate bicycle culture by the way) and we got into the conversation of those who respond well to the atavistic and those who don't, and how many left leaning people tend not to respond well the atavistic.
    A girl came in from the coffee shop art show who I recalled had really liked the bicycle art. I asked her what she thought of the ravenswood wine logo and in a voice full of contempt she said,

    "That looks like something my sister would like. She's 30 and still plays dungeons and dragons".

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  51. Part 3
    That I think is the core of all this dilema. I know in my heart of hearts that I have no desire to set off against non-whites or live in a totalitarian regime. This era of culture helped me set in context feelings I had from my experiences as a squatter. Living in squats, hopping trains, etc. for me was a tribal regression and it inspired for me an active interest in the occult. We hear simular things from bands like neurosis, amebix and crash worship, and is it not suprising that neurosis and crash worship members have ties with post-industrial culture? Watch this video on amebix, are not some of the ideas expressed by them the same notions you hear from post-industrial culture?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LImtYrdhZc&feature=channel_video_title

    Or the new Amebix video, knights of the black sun?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbkwxaG3_Oc&feature=related
    Or the neurosis track about the black sun, the sun that never sets, with blatant lyrics about racial memory?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58ehpj7xzOc

    "A sun that never sets burns on.
    New light is this river's dawn.

    When to speak of a word so old
    is to relearn what is known.
    A time to think back and move on.
    Rebuild the loves of lives long gone.

    The blood that flows through me is not my own.
    The blood is from the past, not my own.
    The blood that leads my life is not my own.
    The blood is strength, I'm not alone."

    Neurosis members contributed to both the TYR journal and Hex magazine. Are people going to say that these guys are Nazis? Speaking of squatter ties to the post-industrial scene there was the punk/neo-folk crossover band doomsday couldron and there is the active project kama rupa(Whom I know but I'm not able to comment on the members views).I stayed with them at c-squat after that last NYC NON show.

    Torturecide also comes out of the squatter scene, as do many of the people who contribute to oneiric imperium (Bryan Babylon, Jason Lantis Brandon Cohen, etc.), or used to contribute like Justin Duerr (of northern liberties), and Gary Steinour (of bitchslicer).

    I'm begining to find the WW2 fetishism of the post-industrial scene to be tedious and counter-productive. It fosters too much empty posturing and aiming to revamp the ideas of a failed government from another era is not going to help white people in any way.

    My friends and I had for a time a unique eurocentric DIY scene in the Fishtown section of Philadelphia, or which Germ Books was the focal point. We had ex-skins, black metal guys, lots of insane beautiful girls, noise/neo-folk people, heathens, and folk art people coming together. Some were overtly white power and some were just pagans, but we all felt like we were embarking on something both seemingly primordial and yet new.

    We had had basement shows at my house and a variety of events at germs. I lived with a bunch of indie rock kids and had them mixing with the evil P.E. guys, church of Satan members and ex-skins. Germ had Hex sign art shows and meet up groups on Urglaawe (Pennsylvania dutch folk magic- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urglaawe )

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  52. Part 4
    Changes played at Germ books with Moynihan in tow and we all got to participate in a heathen baby naming rite for Robert N. Taylor's son. Boyd Rie stopped by for a book signing and we all took him out drinking. David Irving gave a lecture at Germ, and he kinda seemed like a dick to be honest. The church of satan had an art show at germ and even Peter Gilmore showed up. Plus our NYC friends cult of youth played at germ.

    We all got along fine with the community. We would go to to DIY punk and indie shows and no one gave us any shit. We had ties with the local brealcore, 8-bit and new/cold wave scene. We spent a lot of time in NYC with the wierd records cold wave crowd.

    We got along fine because despite of being openly racialist we were polite, fun, and always up to neat and creative things. Many people like my graffiti and street art even if they don't agree with my views, which I tend to keep out of my street art.

    We have set an example with that era in Fishtown. At no point did we jump people, or in anyway bother non-whites. We were just productively pro-white in a fun and creative DIY way. My Mom, who actually raised me to be non-racist, even applauded our antics and was around for a lot of it. There was a night she ended up smoking weed with George Petros and Robert N. Taylor.

    This is what I'm about. This is why I support this blog because I know my ideas work in practical application and if this blog forces those in Europe to abandon their goth/industrial support base they'll have to adopt our approach.

    -Oneiric Imperium

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  53. @ Just Another Communist

    Dig a bit deeper and you'll find that OI is a nobody in the scene he talks about. He's seemingly trying hard to plug his name via this blog and so far no result. No one cares about his music or his bullshit opinions.

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  54. @ Egg Baker - yes it does reference the excellent Fall track.

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  55. Hallo.
    OI sounds delusional. Most American projects have no links to racist/fascist undertones. Slogun, Fire in the head, Control, Sickness, Prurient, Rrr records, malignant, monte cazazza, savage republic, sleep chamber, intrinsic action, bloody minded, etc. The list is long. It may be true for some of his circle of friends, but America is quite big.
    What you state regarding the several European scenes (they cannot be considered as a whole) is false and proove his complete ignorance. There have been surely many goths and metalheads that turned into industrial/neo folk, - most of which returned where they belonged to once the trend has expired- but the core of the scene is split between people with post punk roots (uk france italy), 100% industrial background (Germany, spain, belgium, Italy) and people coming from the punk/squat scene (germany/italy) were real fascists -not the alleged fascists this blog wastes time with - are not even considered.
    Industrial music, despite the experimentalism, started as a criticism to society before taking different orientation and these were the scenes more interested in such subjects.
    Regarding Goths, they were probably the most open minded listener around, with a fond interest in different sorts of music (in the 80's and 90's you would see them at punk/industrial/ oi! gigs) and their parties have been since the beginning the only places were you could listen to industrial music, and some of them were the main organizers - often in squats -. This happened in the whole of Europe and still goes on.
    As even stones know most metalheads were dragged into industrial culture after Swedish anarchist label Cold meat industry started releasing projects - some very good ones- with explicit black metal references back in the mid/late 90's which is about 20 years after the whole thing started.
    Amen.

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  56. Trellick Vobes3 Jul 2011, 17:54:00

    "We have set an example with that era in Fishtown. At no point did we jump people" - Are you the same Oneiric Imperium (Eric Keiser/Bood Samel) who stalked and assaulted a woman in Ambler PA? "The assault consisted of both broken arms, hands, and skull fractures. All a result of punching, kicking, and using a steel metal power drill smashed into her skull."
    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/erickeiserwarrant1ra5.png/

    I blame the parents...
    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/erickeiserwarrant1ra5.png/

    Nice guy though:
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3529/3304487937_4a8c1dc0e5.jpg?v=0

    I can see why he was stung by the remarks about dungeons and dragons by the bicyle-loving woman (apart from the fact that she's a woman... I guess his mom is the only woman he respect) when you look at his 'art' - if any further proof is needed that this violent misogynist nazi lives in the infantile fantasy world of a nine year old, here it is... http://www.flickr.com/photos/45016574@N03/4843988410/

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  57. Ok. Now that the Slimelight show has passed and a number of the artists involved have subsequently issued 'statements' (however lae or disingenuous you may consider them to be) could we please move onto something else as this is frankly now boring as fuck.

    I think the Death / Black metal scene is long overdue some attention. It is an infinitely larger and more popular scene than the tiny 'neo-folk' goth microcosm, and while it may have escaped your notice on the very same night Sol Invictus etc played to a couple of hundred at Slimlight, at Camden Underworld a number of Black Metal acts (some who actually proclaim themselves to be 'National Socialists', Odinists etc) were playing to a packed house. Seems a bit weird to ignore a scene as enormous as Black Metal, especially when a number of it's followers (and musicians) have carried out murders of non-whites and gays.

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  58. Please take baby Oneiric's rattle away from him. I suppose using the word "oneiric" is his way of saying, "I'm panged out of my tiny mind on solvents and glue."
    Drug abuser, women-beater and not a friend left in the world. Oneiric Oblivion would be more appropriate, surely?

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  59. Upjumped; A Swagman.3 Jul 2011, 20:33:00

    Anon who said "Ok. Now that the Slimelight show has passed" above -
    I think you will find that it was Robbie Williams who sung the song with the chorus
    'Let me entertain you" - not the person who runs this site - bored you may be but reading the above i'm sure it isn't over.
    But I do agree with you - a piece on the Black Metal scene and the problems within is very, very long overdue here - it has only been vaguely touched on in a couple of early posts and comments - Steven O'Malleys and George Burdis name came up - and Didrik Soderlind - the pompous ass who made his name off of the back of "Lords of Chaos' has pushed his ugly snout and odious carcass into the frame so its about time that someone here chased him and his stupid minions back to where he/they came from and nosed aroundin his particular corner of Hell. David Tibet has also been playing with one of the people from that scene in the last few years too - Maniac - who has the group Skitliv but used to be in Mayhem who caused some controversy themselves in the past. I just had a look and I note that Skitliv is on Cold Spring....it seems all roads lead back...but then again so is Anni Hogan! shouldn't someone warn her? but then again all roads lead back...[no mistake]
    There is also the shadowy idiot Alex Kurtagic. I don't think he really exists - I think he is a construct cooked up by either Troy Southgate, Jonathan Bowden or Stephen Bernard Cox - the latter certainly [and oddly] had a connection to NSBM. Look at the website - look at the pictures. Now - 'Thats what I call Needing Investigation 18'.

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  60. Just Another Comment3 Jul 2011, 20:43:00

    Woah. A lot to respond to!

    First, OI and his remarks. Well, I will give OI one thing...he does genuinely engage with this issue. I don't find a lot of sense in what he says, but his engagement, which constitutes detailed responses is preferable than the usual stupid one liners we get around here. Now, on to specific issues...

    Oddly enough no one I know from underground hip-hop has any issue with anything that I have to say. The guy in question who writes and raps under the name Slave 1 aka Sone, is a Mexican and isn't bothered by my views.

    It is possible they don't really know what their implications are. Not because these people are unintelligent or because you are deceiving them, but because of how neofolkies present their views and the symbols they use. Terms like 'volk', images like the totenkopf and wolfs angle, and all this evola/devi/black sun silliness does not bother the average person because most have no idea what the hell any of it means. Most people would look at the wolf angle used by Boyd Rice, for instance, and think it was just something he made up, since most people have never even seen it before.

    It is entirely possible that most people who don't object to these ideas simply are not making the connection between them and between actual nazism, fascism, and racism. Further, when it comes to your specific manner of describing this stuff...well...someone else said you sound delusional. I would not go that far, not yet, but I can easily see a case where someone that might otherwise be bothered by your views would just dismiss you as kind of eccentric and weird, and not take you that seriously.


    I attended an art event he contributed to of Mexican day of the day art at a Hispanic community center earrlier this year. I thought it was cool because he was mixing the traditional themes of his volk with his graffiti style. Its not like I started using candy skulls in my art or that he started using runes in his.


    If he did, would that bother you? I've used all sorts of 'cultural' symbols in my own stuff, including runes, hebrew letters/symbols, various 'African' iconography (yeah, broad umberlla, I know). I do not think that a persons expression should be limited by some nonexistent 'volk' roots they cannot belong to. I would go so far as to question whether anyone who thinks that is really an artist in any meaningful sense at all. But I wonder...would you find it objectionable for him to use runes in his material? As I said, I use runes at times, but I'm certainly not 'nordic'either. I'm an American. Not a native American. Just a raceless American. My family roots have not touched 'Europe' in centuries, and I don't consider myself to have any profound connection to any supposed 'volk' or other European ethnic group in any meaningful way whatsoever. I've never been to Europe, don't really know anyone from Europe that well, etc. But you seem to think that a person has a connection to some sort of supernatural 'volk' group regardless of whether they do in any real world sense or not.



    People can appreciate each others cultures while still maintaining the a certain distance that preserves the boundries and form of these cultures.


    This is nonsense. There has never been a time when 'cultures' did not cross pollinate, or assimilate, or become subjugated, or imported/exported various elements. Could you explain how a culture maintains 'boundaries'? Ever since at LEAST the neolithic era, tribes of hunter-gatherers and early agrarian humans were trading with one another, merging together for various reasons, splitting off, and forming new distinct groups. This is not meant as an insult, exactly, but you sound completely ignorant of anthropology and how these things work in reality.

    (Continued)

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  61. Just Another Comment3 Jul 2011, 21:17:00

    As to the Raven wine logo and the bike art...you probably like the logo because it looks like this thing;

    http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/Triskele.asp

    As for the comment by the girl from the coffee shop...she is probably seeing it in terms of generic fantasy imagery. I like fantasy stuff myself, though I mostly go for J-Fantasy in the form of console RPG's. Still, to many observers, runic posturing amongst neofolk fans probably looks to be just as silly as the geeky bedwetting fantasy/furry/wicca/otherkin subcultures they have seen, and they probably look pretty similar to those who don't study this stuff.

    Being that I love bicycles myself, I find your observations about all of this to be side splitting. But to reiterate...'left leaning' individuals tend to be, frankly, more anchored in the real world that people who find atavism appealing. They have good jobs, a decent income, a good support system, and so forth. I do think that 'left leaning' individuals such as myself probably do have a different way of processing information that more right leaning ones do. I think this crosses over with how religious vs. nonreligious, and those inclined to superstition vs. those who are not.



    My friends and I had for a time a unique eurocentric DIY scene in the Fishtown section of Philadelphia, or which Germ Books was the focal point. We had ex-skins, black metal guys, lots of insane beautiful girls, noise/neo-folk people, heathens, and folk art people coming together. Some were overtly white power and some were just pagans, but we all felt like we were embarking on something both seemingly primordial and yet new.


    This just sounds preposterous. I think anyone who openly, repeatedly associates with white supremacists is showing highly questionable judgment, or worse.

    You even go on to mention that a known holocaust denier, whose position was annihilated by Michael Shermer in Denying History (and numerous other times), spoke at Germ Books.

    http://www.skepdic.com/holocaustdenial.html

    http://www.holocaust-trc.org/deny_history.htm


    David Irving. Facepalm. Associating with someone like that is not something to brag about, dude.

    AND the church of satan, too? You really know how to pick em'.

    Did people really welcome you 'open racialists'? Or did they just consider you too meaningless to bother with? Were people really okay with you, or did they laugh at you guys once you left?

    You do engage with issues presented on this blog...but man...I have to say, I find your viewpoint to be borderline delusional.

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  62. Just Another Comment3 Jul 2011, 21:25:00

    Trellick...

    Interesting. I would like confirmation that this OI is the same guy in the warrant before addressing that, since that is a VERY serious matter. If he is...I don't even know what to say.

    As for that Flickr link, the majority of those works do not inspire confidence in his abilities.

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  63. Just Another Comment3 Jul 2011, 21:29:00

    Whether this is 'boring' is largely immaterial. The facts are important. Regardless, the blog could broaden its focus, though the reason it has not is probably that the authors are simply focusing on the areas they know best.

    Death and Black Metal? I would welcome more attention on that front. Strel, are you well versed in that world? If not, would you welcome a guest article? I haven't followed that scene in great depth for some time, but I know more than enough to be capable of writing a decent series of posts that outline the general problems with the black metal scene. (Death metal crosses over, but I am somewhat less familiar with that world.)

    Strel, let me know if you are interested and I will gladly get in touch with you.

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  64. Ok, in response to the question i asked earlier about the name of this website take its name from the irreverent ditty of everyones favourite anarcho-weirdos The Fall(which i've been told now it does).. Because interestingly enough the LP 'Hex Enduction Hour' from which its from also opens with the track 'The classical.' Lets have a look at a quote regarding this:

    '...In 1984, Motown Records expressed an interest in signing the band to a new UK division and asked to hear their back catalogue. "Hex" was the only album Smith had to hand. The letter the group received back stated "I see no commercial potential in this band whatsoever". Smith publicly speculated that this might have had something to do with the lines "Where are the obligatory niggers? / Hey there, fuckface" from album opener "The Classical".'

    Soooo, whos going to defend this?Its slightly more controversial than andrew king anyhow...

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  65. OK, I'm gonna post here even though obviously no one's gonna like my own blog because unlike you I'm not politically correct.

    So now we're talking about the metal scene, which you have ignored so far concerning the scene's nazi connections. I can say that I've had problems with the local metal scene, more so than the times I myself saw Death in June and Blood Axis in NYC (consecutively) in'04. So I said it, yeah, I saw two of the controversial acts mentioned (along with David E. Williams who opened for DIJ.)

    Getting that out of the way though, I can tell you years ago (not so much now) you would be in danger of being attacked by nazi skinheads if you saw any death metal show. Such music is more attractive to right-out nazis than any 'dark folk' show. In fact it was common knowledge that shitty Buffalo hatecore band No Alibi had direct support amongst the whole Buffalo metal scene at one point.

    So don't tell me how bad the 'dark folk' scene is. I can tell you if I had a choice to hang around either Onieric Imperium or those scumbags No Alibi, I'd pick the former. I had an unpleasant discussion with the main guy of the latter band, and he's just a boorish, disgusting thug.

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  66. @Just Another Comment: "Death and Black Metal?... would you welcome a guest article?"

    I am not well versed in that area and I would very much welcome an article. In fact, I would welcome articles from any guest contributors about any related subjects. The narrow focus of the blog is largely due to a lack of knowledge and understanding on my part, but the hope was always that other people would start to contribute about topics the original contributors weren't able to discuss authoritatively.

    If anyone want to contribute articles, contact me at the address here.

    As for Wakeford / Sol/ etc., I don't trust his statements but I do think it important that he has made the latest one. Whether it is a ruse or a genuine shift of position I can't say, but it is good that the group have been forced / shoved in this direction.All anyone can do is watch what happens next.

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  67. "All anyone can do is watch what happens next"

    A wise position to take. One of the elements of this site I do feel rather uncomfortable with is that some posters do appear oblivious to the concept of 'deviance labelling', which I know can actually be a main reason individuals are reticent to sever ties with right-wing associates. As it would at least appear a number of the musicians idntified on this site are now doing.

    This should be welcomed as, however insincere or late it may be, it at least draws a line in the sand whereby they won't be promoting any fascist/racist thmes IN THE FUTURE. Should they do so they can be easily and publicly pilloried.

    However, should individuals CONTINUE to wage online campaigns against them, well, perhaps retreat back to the safe world of fascist-tinged neo folk may seem a more confortable option...?

    I think this in an important line to take. How can people renounce their pasts if they are not allowed to?

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  68. Guided Missile4 Jul 2011, 00:47:00

    Come on! what the fuck is that last comment, Strelnikov? you bin munchin' the happy pills or
    something?
    What they, The Sol Invictus have said is the usual permutation of the same shit that Wakefraud has been spinning ever since anyone thought he may have an interesting thing to say about the ways of the world.
    Just take a look at any early interview or for that matter any of his nationalist writings and you'll see magnanimous expression of apparent humanism tinged with a shared-with-his audience misanthropy masking right-wing libertarianism at best.
    You push someone up against a wall and hold a gun to their throat and they will say anything to get themselves off the hook - the minute you turn your back you will regret believing them; a promise made under duress is commonly and rightly believed to have no weight or worth.
    But having said that, actually, I too am glad they have done what they have done. My conscience will be clear, then.

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  69. While a criminal complaint in regards to the Ambler incident was filed against me the charges are unfounded. I've been in jail twice sense then, including being held by the warrant police for old 90's graffiti related charges (which are now cleared up)and I was not detained for the criminal complaint nor did it even come up.

    The incident happened before the time period referenced. The person in question also stabbed my Mother, which is a reason why it never went any where. She herself has been arrested before and after this incident for domestic violence. If anyone is curious, ask William Clark, he was there during my incident and ended up in his own domestic dispute in Chicago with the same girl-
    http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=1200968144

    I was advised by a lawyer to not worry about it.

    @Just Another Comment
    About your comments about the people had around. Well who do you think likes post-industrial culture? The whole thing has always been made up by the grey areas where satanism, odinism, etc. over lap with fringe elements of the far right. It was fun for while it existed-
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/15428113@N00/3396888205/in/photostream

    Some posters on here seem to think that leftist values are mainstream and well regarded by the general public, which they aren't. I have no problem with being a marginal extremist, and despite of being a seemingly racist, misogynist,vandalizing, drug using gaming nerd Oneiric Imperium and related projects still retains its core network of contributers and followers. Or perhaps even because of it.

    @ Amen
    "Slogun, Fire in the head, Control, Sickness, Prurient, Rrr records, malignant, monte cazazza, savage republic, sleep chamber, intrinsic action, bloody minded"

    Honestly I always forget those bands even exist. While I have no issue with any of those people, that stuff, I guess you could say its the Iheartnoise.com crowd or whatever, I've hardly even heard any of that stuff, and most people I know into PE, Dark Ambient, etc. don't listen to any of those guys.

    There is you know genetik terrorists, operation miranda,T.H.M.A., Zocialist Zeigtgeist, Rosemary Malign, torturecide, brethern, day of the rope, control resistence, genocide lolita, invisible war, kama rupa,doomsday couldron, harvest rain, necrofascist, awen, luftwaffe, cult of youth, shinning vril, nazi UFO commander,the extremist, as all die, jihad blade, Robert X. Patriot and so on.

    I'm not here to argue which end of things is cooler or more valid then the other, just that there are far more occult, racialist and occult-racialist projects in America then you may know of. I've only ever heard one or two slogun tracks, which I wasn't to fond of, but I like that the guy does graf.

    -Oneiric Imperium

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  70. Some of these people created the whole thing, other made it available since the 80’s and are still doing their excellent stuff and have many supporters here in the old country.
    I am not trying to say these are cooler than your friends (some of the projects you mentioned are definitely interesting), but you previously made an explicit statement saying that the US scene was more racially minded while this may refer to a little corner of a much wider picture, so completely wrong exatly like your idea of a European scene considered as whole thing run by people with goths and metal background which is definitely untrue.

    Regarding SHINING VRIL, do you mean Murphy’s one? In case, the project is Australian, based in Europe and he is not "racially minded".

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  71. @Amen-

    Honestly most people I know or talked to online that are into this music are the same ones buying the TYR journals, studying Evola, etc.. But then again perhaps my view is biased because I'm plugged into this area of culture.

    The name Shinning Vril is a an Aryan Occult reference, and isn't the project a lady from Portland teamed up with John Murphy? Portland seems to be a hotbed of that sort of thing.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vril

    Also if the European scene has no goth ties, why are all the post-industrial shows that Antifa types are protesting always at goth clubs and festivals? Night clubs just want to make money and hence why these shows can be shut down. In philly we had genocide lolita shows with no problems, something many people thought not possible. But when you have shows in DIY venues what can antifa types do to shut them down? If people are genuinely into the whole "revolt against the modern world" bit, they could stand to be a little more like crass and a lot less like mein kampf.

    Also when I used to go to a lot of punl/indie/etc house shows in philly a few years back I'd see these events pack in more people then shows at bars. Even if money is more of issue for people, which is some what understandable for older, middle aged people making this music who may have kids, own property, etc. there is still the potential to earn large sums of money in house shows and warehouse shows, perhaps even more so then in bars and clubs.

    If people care about these sorts of ideas, then genuine community has to be built. And I don't mind being singled out and have all my dirty laundry scrutinized and rediculed in order to put these ideas out there. I am not a paragon of aryan virtue but I also have nothing to loose. I'm just some guy doing what I do.

    -Oneiric Imperium

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  72. The current issue of Searchlight anti-fascist magazine (July 2011), according to the Searchlight website, features an article entitled 'Slimelight club hosts fascist bands' by Alexander Gray. Anyone read it yet? See the 'Contents' section of their website:

    www.searchlightmagazine.com

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  73. 1
    You are not referring to SHINING VRIL, but another project featuring Murphy’s ex partner – I cannot recall the name at the moment.

    Vril comes from the Edward Bulwer-Lytton’s book “The power of the coming race”, one of the primeval science book fiction, written long before the 3rd reich and then taken as truth by theosophist loonies (no more no less than geeks taking LOTS and Lovecraft as truth) and then from many others although completely fictional.
    For instance the word Vril was inspired by a meat product named Bovril.
    Murphy’s inspiration came from the curing/destructive force of the substance. No more, no less and no blonde antisemtic  warriors included.

    The book is easily available on line, so are information about its genesis.

    Amen

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  74. 2
    Reading TYR magazine or Evola does not make you automatically a pedigree racist/fascist; his books are widely available even in them main big left wing chains and new ages book-stores since he dealt with several different topics, evolving his own ideas and changing perspective. There is an interest in him also in art circles due to his connection with Tristan Tzara and Dadaism.

    If you will re-read my past message I did not state anywhere that there are no links with Goth culture (as if it would be a sin), quite the contrar. What I intended to say in my poor English is that, contrarily from what you asserted in one of your previous messages, most people involved in industrial projects do not come from Goth/Metal background. You have a completely wrong idea of how things work over here.

    There are string networks that include not only people into industrial/pe/neo-folk (thank God for that!), and definitely not many make a living out of it. You describe organizers as people who are in it just for the money while (unless they own clubs, which is very rare) they all have a normal 9-5 jobs. Only some labels and some bigger/older bands can live 100% by music (I would say 10 projects in the whole of Europe, out of some thousand). It sounds like you are implying the European scene(s) are somehow “commercial”, while everybody si spitting blood and swear to keep things going (be them into clubs or squats) against any odds, which are definitely not anti-fas (maybe 10 years ago but now things calmed down desite the internet noises), since many anti-fas listen to the same stuff and know to read inbetween-lines.
    To make big money you need to have thousands of people, not max 300 person that drink less than the average rock-and-roll/blues fans.

    All festivals I have been in UK, Spain, Germany, Switzerland, Holland,  even when successful, just helped to pay for further advertisements/websites and ads.
    Metal/Blues/Jazz/Reggae/HipHop are much more rewarding scenes to invest your money in, and if somebody can make some money out of it means more gigs, more advertisements, etc.

    Right wing squats where antifa don’t go are more interested in other lond of music (alternative/rac/hip hop) and do not organize neo-folk/industrial shows.

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Please at least use a pseudonym so it's possible to follow your argument if you make multiple posts