Tuesday, 21 June 2011

Andrew King and 'Traditionalism'

Note: This post was taken down by Blogger after they received a 'DCMA Takedown Notification' on the grounds that the post infringed copyright. According to the notification I received I should have been able to find out the details of the complaint in order to rectify the mistake by searching the site ChillingEffects.Org. In fact I could not find any reference there to the complaint, so I am reposting this, minus the original image and the full lyrics to David E Williams's song 'Wotan Rains on Plutocracts Parade', as they could both conceivably be the subject of copyright claims. The authors of the complaint did not seek to contact me directly before registering their complaint. Therefore I currently have no way of knowing what the precise nature of their complaint was

One of the most often mentioned facts used to justify the campaign against the forthcoming Sol/6 Comm gig is that Andrew King, a member of Sol Invictus and part of a duo with Tony Wakeford, Duo Noir, has released a song with racist and fascist lyrics. The song is called 'Wotan Rains on Plutocrats Parade', and was not written by King himself but by David E. Williams.

King's only lyrical innovation in his cover version was, apparently, to substitute 'bongo drums' for 'battle drums'. In some local media reports the owner of Slimelight is quoted as saying this song will be performed on the night of the gig. I find it pretty unlikely that he said that (though obviously it isn't impossible). Why on earth would the venue manager know the set lists for individual groups weeks in advance of the gig? In any case, it's a solo Andrew King release and not a Sol Invictus song. On top of that, while King is an occasional member of Sol Invictus, I have no idea whether he will even be playing with them at this particular gig. I don't know for sure, but no one should assume that he is.

But whatever the case with King's attendance or non-attendance at the gig, the lyrics certainly bear on the question of how seriously we should take Tony Wakeford's claim that he would never have a racist or fascist in his band.

Now, some people have suggested (on this blog and elsewhere) that King's lyrics may be disgusting, but that he intends the song ironically, and that he has no connection with such sentiments and does not believe any of them himself. The reference to 'building a fortress' of Hitler biographies is offered as evidence of King's (and Williams's original) satirical intent, and is, it is claimed, aimed at Nazi fantasists. This could even be true - but since this has been argued in his defence, it is worth asking what Andrew King's politics actually are. Therefore I read with great interest an interview with King I recently discovered in the journal Tyr.

Before saying anything about the interview itself, let me just point out that Tyr was founded - and the issue of Tyr I will refer to (#3, 2007-2008) was edited by - Michael Moynihan of the group Blood Axis. Moynihan is a former collaborator of Boyd Rice, and an active ideologue of both racist paganism and the 'radical / traditionalism' of the extreme right. The post 'Michael Moynihan's Siege Mentality' discusses Moynihan's publication of Siege, a collection of articles by the ultra-fascist James Mason. In Siege, Mason celebrates the random killings of Jews, blacks, socialists, 'mixed-race couples', and so on. He is a holocaust denier, but also says "it was indeed a damnable shame that Hitler did not, in fact, kill at least six million Jews during the war. We... know what the Jews were and are all about and we can shed no tears for any of them". Speaking of his enemies generally, he says "for the United States there will be no need for concentration camps of any kind, for not a single transgressor will survive long enough to make it to that kind of haven". All of this was published enthusiastically by Moynihan in 1992, in a luxury edition hardback book of 450 or so pages, which Moynihan transcribed and edited, and for which he also wrote the introduction. 

Tyr itself is obviously aimed at a slightly more - let's call it - sophisticated audience - or perhaps is just more circumspect about how it presents itself. On the journal's cover it says that Tyr "celebrates the traditional myths, culture and social institutions of pre-Christian, pre-modern Europe", which may sound simply a bit modishly pagan and not a problem as such; but the 'radical traditionalism' it stands for is that of, for example, the fascist Julius Evola (whose influence on the neo-folk/martial/industrial scene is discussed here), and one of the central preoccupations of the journal appears to be to promote the ideas of Alain de Benoist and his various collaborators in the French Nouvelle Droite (New Right). The New Right aim to create a Europe based on exclusive tribal groups, which will be led by a 'traditional hierarchy'. Essentially they are rebranding fascism, drawing on traditionalism, paganism, aspects of the thought of the Italisn 'super-fascist' Julius Evola, and so on. If Tyr is often critical of particular de Benoist formulations, it's criticism is generally from a position even further to the right.

Now, in issue #3 of Tyr there is an interview with King in which he discusses his attitude to traditional folk music. I won't go into the details of the interview, but enough to say that King has a broad and detailed knowledge of English folk tradition (he has been employed as an archivist for the National Sound Archive of the British Library) even if his understanding of it is very much shaped by his politics - one of his claims is that the reception of folk music (including within neo-folk) has been skewed by the fact that the "father figures" of English folk (Ewan MacColl and A.L. Lloyd) were Marxists (p. 392). Now, there's nothing wrong with that as such: what is really alarming is the politics that King believes should replace such an understanding.

In the course of the interview King argues that "the media, cultural and educational establishments have unequivocally abandoned their cultural heritage in favour of postmodern irony and rootless cosmopolitanism." (p. 388) Now, I don't know about you, but most of us understand that the term 'rootless cosmopolitanism' is a euphemism for the Jews. While most of King's interview is framed using language that steers well clear of the inflammatory rhetoric of James Mason, nevertheless it is clear that King shares much of the worldview of Tyr's editors.

His main complaint - and his explanation as to why folk music is not given it's due weight - is that:
"Not only do we have the damage of modernism to deal with, but also that of its descendants, a plethora of vested interests whose ideologies (relativism, multiculturalism, rights-issues and cosmopolitanism) are deeply inimical to the central historic virtues of our culture. The most brazen and shameful manifestation of this is the total abdication of the postwar liberal elite of the West's claim to moral and cultural superiority." (p. 391)
He then calls on the "post-industrial / experimental scene" to act "as a harbinger of moral cultural change" (p. 391): ie. he hopes to influence it in that direction. To put it another way, he sees the folk revival of the neo-folk scene as an opportunity to turn back 'multiculturalism', etc. That is his agenda. His ideal is a a situation in which people concentrate on "the more overtly obvious aspects of their own country's 'Volks-culture'" (p. 392). Regarding the content of his work, he says that "while the historical and cultural references can be very cerebral, it is also obvious that the truly emblematic imagery comes from, inhabits, and returns to, the nether regions of the subconscious as well as the race memory of the West." (p. 404). I'd love to see him defend the lyrics of 'Wotan's Rains' in terms of how it embodies 'race memory'.

His final thoughts in the interview concern the First and Second World Wars, which he discusses in the context of his painting of the figure of Judith above the ruins of Dresden. For him, Judith represents the "wholesale destruction that happens when a culture forgets itself". He argues that "By allowing itself to succumb to the bloodletting exercise of the two world wars... the West tragically abdicated its position of political, moral and cultural superiority." Again, while there is none of racist ranting of 'Wotan Rains' or Siege, it's pretty clear here that King shares the fascist / radical traditionalist view that the war against fascism was a tragedy, a 'war between brothers', because it prevented the building a fascist Imperium across Europe.

I won't beat the point to death - it hardly matters what the protagonists say or do, there is always some supporter of the 'scene' who will make excuses for it. But to me it seems as clear as day that one of Tony Wakeford's most important collaborators openly shares the views of the extreme, neo-fascist right, loathes multiculturalism and ''rights-issues', and sees the neo-folk milieu as a forum in which he can promote those ideas. Incidentally, King is not only interviewed in Moyhihan's journal, but has also collaborated with him since then in Moyhihan's musical project, Blood Axis. Supporters of Sol Invictus are fond of pointing out that it's members have included Jews and Lesbians, missing the point that our objection is not to them, but to the anti-Semites and opponents of (gay and lesbian?) 'rights' that it also manages to coexist with.

So, whether King will play at the gig or not, is it really reasonable to think that Tony Wakeford - who is very familiar with the 'radical traditionalist' ideas of Evola - isn't familiar with the import of King's politics? So where does that leave his claim that he would not work with racists or fascists?

Plenty of people have complained that the opposition to the Slimelight gig is based essentially on the fact that Wakeford was once in the National Front, and that the critics simply refuse to believe that he could have changed. But that is to misunderstand the argument; his membership of the NF is simply used as an entry point into a wider argument about a whole network of musicians who work together, promote one another, appear on one another's records, and who - to very different degrees, admittedly - in various ways either actively promote racist and fascist ideas or collude with those who do. That happens whether it is a matter of Wakeford (who has a certain kudos as a founder member of Death in June - the founders of the genre) continuing to work with people like King, whose language in this interview is peppered with the 'dog whistle' ideas and terms of the far-right, or whether it is the issue of King himself (also a member of Sol Invictus, let's not forget) working happily alongside Moynihan - who surely after the Mason business is indefensible by pretty much anyone who would consider themselves anti-fascist.

57 comments:

  1. You know the original song was supposed to be 100% satire, right?

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  2. King looks like an inflated Michelin Man version of Tiny Tim, doesn't he?

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  3. You know the original song was supposed to be 100% satire, right?

    If you haven't grasped the concept that 'context' is integral and imperative to the acts rightly (and wrongly) critiqued on this site you are truly retarded.

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  4. and the point of this post is?

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  5. anon - seeing as how you haven't noticed the following from the above - i'll print it again - and if the beef is about the actual percentage of irony used a] to create the lyric and, before someone else comes in, b] in Andrew Kings interpretation - well, tell me the make and model of the machine you used and I'll try to raise the money to buy one. Thats the point of this piece at a guess - anyway, here you go - [from above]

    Now, some people have suggested (on this blog and elsewhere) that King's lyrics may be disgusting, but that he intends the song ironically, and that he has no connection with such sentiments and does not believe any of them himself. The reference to 'building a fortress' of Hitler biographies is offered as evidence of King's (and Williams's original) satirical intent, and is, it is claimed, aimed at Nazi fantasists. This could even be true - but since this has been argued in his defence, it is worth asking what Andrew King's politics actually are. Therefore I read with great interest an interview with King I recently discovered in the journal Tyr."

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  6. Caveats:

    1. It is not quite correct to say 'Wotan Rains...', the song you refer to has "racist and fascist" lyrics. The song is sung from the perspective of a racist/fascist personality, hence its delivery. It's a first person narrative. Ask David E Williams about it.

    2. It is NOT an "Andrew King release." King records and releases traditional song, and only that — this was a cover version done, at the request of David E Williams — for an album devoted to cover versions of Williams's songs, and released by Williams.

    3. The "quote" by the Slimelight manager to the effect that Sol Invictus would be playing the song during the gig in question, is, as you suspect, sheer invention on the part of the website that published it. Neither King nor Sol Invictus would consider playing the song live — this nonsensical trash spewed out by the Islington Tribune's Pavan Amara will surely come back to bite him viciously.

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  7. The Sol Invictus facebook page was just updated today to indicate that King is leaving the band, and offers an explanation that "The rest of the band have felt uncomfortable regarding some of his outside endeavours and pronouncements, which we were not previously aware of and which have recently come to light."

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  8. @ Anonymous
    'You know the original song was supposed to be 100% satire, right?'

    A lame attempt to brainwash the scene into saying something often enough until it believes it:

    You know the song was meant for a white audience?
    Check Oneiric Imperium's comment on another blog about David E. Williams' friends. Or just check out the Germ bookstore events archive. Now try singing any version of that song in front of a black or jewish person with no reference to the 'context' of the album. I think you'll be surprised...
    And King will be touring in Europe with Michael Moynihan and David E. Williams this summer.

    I'm anti right-wing campaigners who charm their way round the planet dreaming of and preparing for the day their Empire is restored. No free speech under slavery. Have you got that yet, all you apologists?
    You reap what you sow is my motto.

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  9. Satire? Satire is supposed to be funny. I've seen a lot of stand-up over the years, some real hard-nosed provocative acts, but I really can't imagine the audience that's going to allow a performer to climb back out of the hole dug by that opening barrage of crude racist slurs: "Hey, everybody, I was being IRONIC! I'm being absurd now! Sing along! EVERYBODY!"

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  10. The above comment has got to be the single shittest thing I have ever read, including Mein Kampf.

    Did you just read the article, dickhead? It's fairly straightforward.

    You're annoyed by Who Makes The Nazis because THEY ARE ON TO YOU.

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  11. There's a common-sense argument to be applied here, which is that NO-ONE, with even half a brain, would sing blatantly Nazi and racist lyrics like this wanker chose to, unless they enjoyed grievously offending victims of Fascism - that, in itself, is more than enough reason to oppose these scum. Plenty of the people who went along with the original Nazi movement were just in it for the ride, and didn't either understand or even care about real Nazi politics, that doesn't mean their actions shouldn't have been opposed.

    To be honest, I don't even care whether these people are "real" Nazis that much, their behaviour is so vile they're beneath contempt, and they deserve the opposition they worked so hard to generate either way.

    As for Tony Wakeford, his choice is simple, if he wants people to believe he's not a scumbag any more then he should stop performing alongside Nazis and racists (even a berk like him can probably work that one out). As for Slimelight manager Mayuan Mak, when he stops booking bands who publish tracks like "Storm Detachment Hitler" and "Legalise Child Abuse" (see Indymedia) then he might get more of the benefit of the doubt.

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  12. The Sol Invictus facebook page was just updated today to indicate that King is leaving the band, and offers an explanation that "The rest of the band have felt uncomfortable regarding some of his outside endeavours and pronouncements, which we were not previously aware of and which have recently come to light."

    Progress?

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  13. The concert on the 25th June was to be Andrew King's last appearance with Sol Invictus. However, Andrew has now decided not to take part in the concert.
    We respect his decision and thank him for the contribution he has made.

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  14. Tony Wakeford seems to have sacked (presumably) the only member of Sol Invictus who was worth a shit — at least artistically. If this is "progress" then I expect Wakeford to progress steadily into banality and obscurity.

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  15. For what it's worth, the comment I previously quoted was deleted from the Facebook page and replaced with a much more generic one about how King is leaving the band, reasons unexplained, with any negative insinuations omitted. My guess is that he was sacked, but Wakeford had second thoughts about saying anything negative about him.

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  16. So we're expected to believe that King had his spotted handkerchief packed and ready to go, well in advance of this controversy, are we? Horse Shit. Oneric Imperium outlined the chronology and circumstances of this disgraceful release for our delectation a couple of months ago – and were it not for the storm of opprobrium which has (rightly) ensued he'd still be firmly ensconced within the Sol Invictus Rainbow Nation, rather than taking his 'Awyun soul' off to ever-decreasing pastures new (probably some shitty Croatian micro-label).

    Oh, and do fuck off, Stefan, with your tawdry 'Injury Lawyers 4 You' routine: the track is an Andrew King 'release' in any meaningful sense of the word. King's going to need every shilling of those royalties where he's going – unless he'd like to donate his miniscule earnings from 'Wotan' to a charity? I hear that he's an enthusiastic supporter of fox-hunting – and the Countryside Alliance will take just about anyone these days!

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  17. Wikipedia: ”The term "rootless cosmopolitan" referred mostly (but not explicitly) to Jewish intellectuals, as an accusation in their lack of patriotism, i.e., lack of full allegiance to the Soviet Union.”

    ..used by Stalin. Not explicitly. So what's the charge on King from that? He is a pagan with a Stalinist eyelid? And that would be the 'fascist circles' in which Wakeford moves today? Funny. Oh, but wait, you also have the 'Moynihan' connection. That would mean that somebody no longer in Sol Invictus have worked (not necessarily politically) with somebody who once had some dealings with somebody who is actually dangerous? Wow, I rest my case.

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  18. @ anonymous — If you insist on getting out of your pram and wailing for attention again, try and be a little less lazy in your "thinking". My points are all well made, and you — don't have anything to say that merits a serious reply.
    But yes, Andrew King is (or at least was at some point) a member of the Countryside Alliance — I'm not sure what LMHR's position on fox hunting is, but I'm sure various commenters can think up a connection between hunting for foxes and lynching black people. Shouldn't be too difficult for you shallow-pates and armchair activists.
    In fact, before King's departure, I fully expected to see another hot story in the Islington Tribune featuring confirmations from the Slimelight management that Sol Invictus would indeed be setting hounds loose on stage to chase a fox (in blackface) up the stairs. Of course, this kind of entertainment would be just the thing for all those sadistic baby-eating Goth vampires in their Nazi armbands.

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  19. And Mr King worked with Current 93 in the 90's supplying artwork for records, book releases (and maybe music I am not sure). Mr Tibet is linked to so many of these people.

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  20. "The Sol Invictus facebook page was just updated today to indicate that King is leaving the band, and offers an explanation that "The rest of the band have felt uncomfortable regarding some of his outside endeavours and pronouncements, which we were not previously aware of and which have recently come to light."" - so this is completely made up right? because nothing remotely similar appears on the facebook page.

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  21. Stefan try to keep up: foxes are PURE BABYEATING EVIL now, haven't you been reading the papers? :)

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  22. Stefan, old chum – I don't feel the need to refer to LMHR, or anyone else for that matter, when positing a view on fox-hunting. I'm more than capable of deciding for myself that it is barbaric and senseless, not to mention grotesquely elitist – although I do concede that it blends seamlessly with the views of someone (King) who finds the notion of "rights-issues" to be "deeply inimical to the central historic virtues of our culture".

    "Neither King nor Sol Invictus", you claim, "would consider playing the song live" – but why should we take your word for that? For a band who have been dogged by controversy of this kind since their inception, it seems a remarkably bold and foolhardy move for King to record an inflammatory song AND to slip in an unadorned racist reference of his own, but we can only speculate as to why he chose to 'break cover' in this way. Perhaps you can ask him, as you appear to be handling his publicity.....

    Your wan attempt at arch humour and your Blimp-ish posturing are an inadequate fig-leaf for something truly repellent, but you've done us all a favour by revealing inadvertently just a fraction more of the modern, metropolitan fascist mindset. Now go on, put us out of our misery – YOU ARE JONATHAN BOWDEN, AND I CLAIM MY £5.

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  23. I think that people above have mentioned the fox-hunting, countryside alliance supporting nature of Andrew King because others [and Tony himself] have been so keen as to portray Tony Wakeford as an animal-loving person. This is quite obviously to make him seem to the uninformed - an all-round, sweet-natured, caring kind of person. And I'm sure they are right - in that he IS kind and caring to animals. He isn't a total monster then, so don't pull that trigger. Hitler had a dog called Blondie - I'm sure Hitler was really kind to him too. But Wakeford couldn't extend that kindness to animals by not tolerating King with his stupid views within his band - so hes obviously not in any way, shape or form ardent and all-encompassing in this area. Apparently a particular favourite of Tony and Renee are birds. I've seen written that both Wakeford and his wife were peddling french Pate de frois grais for a while amongst other foods in special picnic hampers. Heres a piece from wiki -
    "Animal rights and welfare groups such as PETA,[60] Viva!,[61] and the Humane Society of the United States[62] contend that foie gras production methods, and force feeding in particular, constitute cruel and inhumane treatment of animals. Specific complaints include livers swollen to many times their normal size, impaired liver function, expansion of the abdomen making it difficult for birds to breathe, death if the force feeding is continued, and scarring of the esophagus[citation needed]. PETA claims that the insertion and removal of the feeding tube scratch the throat and the esophagus, causing irritations and wounds and thus exposing the animal to risk of mortal infections."
    Also - whilst we are in the 'irrelevant' [according to trolls/hypocrites] - arena of what kind of people are we dealing with here, Wakeford also tolerated the presence of one Richard Moult - whos best friend David Myatt is reported to have strangled cats as part of his rituals. So - THAT is one of the real reasons Wakeford doesn't like Myatt. I think its [not common enough] knowledge that Richard Moult was rather partial to the concept of a bit of sacrifice of a bloody and fatal nature too.

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  24. Where is the information that this was a Duo Noir release? The act is listed as Second Amendment on the tribute cd.

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  25. Yeez, this up there with the Judas Priest-trials...

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  26. WOTAN: "...in addition to being the Germanized spelling of Odin, is also the acronym of "Will Of The Aryan Nation."
    (David (i'm a rightwingnut) Lane in SPLC link on "Slimelight Campaign" blog)

    ZOG: Zionist Occupation Government, an antisemitic conspiracy theory about Jews dominating governments. /The expression is used by antisemitic groups such as white supremacists in the United States[2] and Europe,[3] ultra-nationalists such as Pamyat in Russia, and various far-right groups, including some in Poland.[4] (Wiki)

    PLUTOCRACY: As a propaganda term: In the political jargon and propaganda of Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, western democratic states were referred to as "plutocracies", with the underlying assumption being that a small number of extremely wealthy individuals were controlling the countries and holding them in ransom.[2] "Plutocracy" replaced "democracy" and "capitalism" as the principal fascist term for the United States and Great Britain during the Second World War.[2] For the Nazis, the term was often a code word for "the Jews".[2] (Wiki)

    AND Moynihan gets four mentions in the listing of: "Encyclopedia of White Power: A Sourcebook on the Radical Racist Right."

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  27. "I've seen written that both Wakeford and his wife were peddling french Pate de frois grais for a while amongst other foods in special picnic hampers."
    I was going to comment on this twaddle and the imbecile who wrote it, but seriously . . . it speaks volumes, doesn't it? Are you going to bring PETA to the Slimelight party?
    This is seeming more and more like the Stewart Home prank it really is, no?

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  28. Jaime Dojeur-Vramois24 Jun 2011 04:27:00

    Yes - oh, dear - what can the grammar be?
    [deliberately] stupid anonymous said;
    "Where is the information that this was a Duo Noir release? The act is listed as Second Amendment on the tribute cd."
    there isn't any such information - read that first paragraph again, berk.
    Can I take this opportunity to thank Oneiric Imperium for at least being a person who seems to think the truth is worthwhile - and giving us the lowdown on what happened when this track was done.
    Just to remind everyone - Tony Wakeford knew it was likely to cause trouble [he didn't see anything wrong with it himself, mind, because he didn't sack King there and then] but warned King that that was what he'd have to do if it came out under his own name - so Andrew King adopted the name 'Second Ammendment' - from the United States Bill of Rights that protects "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" - just to rub the message of the track in...the album that it is on was released, at least according to online records - in 2007 on Old Europa Cafe, a label that has quite a few bands that are maybe yet to appear on here, and Ain Soph, for starters - who have been mentioned.
    So, thats about four years that King has been in the band [depending on when it was released in the year] whilst this track was out there - potentially reflecting on all of their reputations. Maybe the rest of the band didn't know about this - apart from Tony - we've heard about him knowing from our pal Oneiric. If that is the case = it doesn't seem very fair, does it? and it certainly makes the original statement seem that yet another lie has been told in the Sol Invictus camp.
    Lets not forget 'Tyr' either, mentioned above, also from a similar time - what did Andrew and Tony do, the rest of you ? [apart from Lloyd James, that is - he would have had it on repeat on his I-pod], - do you remember them saying "look into my eyes, only my eyes"? did they break your fingers so you couldn't do some research of your own - that must have made the playing of your instruments very hard. Or did they merely take the fuses out or lobotomise you?
    Thats a point - are you going to find out that Lloyd is leaving too? after all, he doesn't seem to have raised the alarm when he heard the track - which of course he did at the time because his own track is on there..

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  29. @ Anonymous - I don't think anyone has suggested that this was a Duo Noir release. Duo Noir are Tony Wakeford and Matt Howden. 'Wotan' was recorded by Andrew King. Why are you trying to confuse matters?

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  30. Lesley said...
    "I've seen written that both Wakeford and his wife were peddling french Pate de frois grais for a while amongst other foods in special picnic hampers."
    I was going to comment on this twaddle and the imbecile who wrote it, but seriously . . . it speaks volumes, doesn't it?"

    It probably does, when considered along with all the other examples of Tony's hypocrisy. You seem to be the Sol Invictus spokesperson, or are you just another 'useful idiot'?

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  31. Guys, what a pity. You need more sex and enjoy life more instead of talking about people.
    As a jewish woman (which I don't usually tell but here I think is interesting) and lesbian who fights against sexism in the Middle Eastern countries I can tell that you don't really care about rights, you are just bored.
    I came across this page searching for data and don't know any of the people here or what they do but honestly there is many things to fix and change in this world and it seems sad to waste energy like this.
    השם יברך אותך -- Hashem yevarech otcha

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  32. Wow! is that really Lesley - Lesley Malone of Sol?
    Honored, I'm sure - LOL
    perhaps she could comment on here about the Andrew King situation and the rest - I'd like to hear her side of the story.

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  33. אַנאַנאַמאַס אויבן - איר געזאגט "איר דאַרפֿן מער געשלעכט און הנאה לעבן מער אָנשטאָט פון גערעדט וועגן מענטשן" - דיין מוטער מוזן נישט טראַכטן געזונט פון איר - די נאַזיס זענען ניט טויט און מקבר געווען - דער באַנדיט איז לעבעדיק און קיקינג און באָולסטערד דורך איר און אייער מין - ביטע האַלטן דיין נאַריש טיריז צו זיך - און פּרובירן צו טראַכטן פון אנדערע וואס זענען נישט ווי איר פֿאַר אַ ענדערן!

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  34. Anon "Guys, what a pity"
    You came across this page while searching for data, did you? trolling for data, were you? Lesley put you up to it, did she?
    Reeve! take off that dress, it doesn't suit you - especially with that hairy chest - you should have opted for a high neckline, and shaved your moustache and legs to get a little more authenticity...and get some high heels if you want to been seen above the crowd - but take care to not fall off of the stage...

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  35. I am sorry, I don't know if that comment is for me but I don't know this Lesley. my name is Abigail and I am an American historian and volunteer. I repeat that I don't know these musicians or artists but i found this discussion curious. I thought that I had to say my point of view since there are people here talking in name of us, jewish people, with no sense at all and just to offend.
    I have been blamed by my own father for my sexual preferences and all of this here sounds just like my father trying to blind and it is a lack of respect.
    And again as a woman who is trying to help to avoid and change sexism mainly in Middle Eastern countries I could give you a real list of people who really is fighting to destroy human rights.
    I lost my mother just a month ago and it is then, when you lose what you love, that you realize that everything is too short to hate people blindly. I'm proud of my roots even if my father hates(and he is my father!) me for my personal preferences and there are really important people out there harming to be discussing about a group of people who most of the people don't know and we don't care about.
    Thank you.
    ואהבת לרעך‎

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  36. You know Old Europa Cafe listed Second Ammendment as including Andrew King when the comp came out. I tend to think that Tony Wakeford is only raising a stink because light was drawn to the track, not because he some how didn't know it existed.

    I have no issue with Andrew King. He's perhaps the only one thats more folk and less neo. His art work is pretty neat too. But I'm sick of people like Wakeford who on one hand evoke a volkish and/or heroic spirit in the face of the emptiness and alienation of modernity and then hide behind art fag posturing for the sake of record sales.

    Fuck your money, fuck your goth club shows.Fuck your embossed digipack CDs.

    Play in a squat for 4 people who mean it and release burnt CDrs with photocopied inserts.

    "Kneel to the cross", eh? It's more like kneel to the wal-mart. The emptiness and alienation of consumer anti-culture is more of a threat to a volk revival or any type of community for that matter(white & pagan, or other wise) then the Jesus fan club.

    No more fat goth rock stars.Get a job and deal with the sad ugly world.

    -Oneiric Imperium

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  37. You guys really do excel at putting 2 and 2 together and making 500. I know that neither Lesley or any of the other Sol girls would bother to respond on here, which kind of speaks for itself in terms of much of the spurious conjectures flying around.

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  38. Just Another Comment25 Jun 2011 15:24:00

    The emptiness and alienation of consumer anti-culture is more of a threat to a volk revival or any type of community for that matter(white & pagan, or other wise) then the Jesus fan club.

    The real 'threat' to this revival of yours is the fact that the very concept is complete, utter, ahistorical pseudoscientific nonsense that has no basis in reality whatsoever.

    The other "threats" are that...

    1.Very few people feel the way you do because most of them grow out of taking this stuff seriously pretty quickly.

    2.They don't see the world as a choice between some kind of 'failed' anarcho-punk utopia or some kind of silly 'volkish' community revival.

    You have posted previously about how yourself and others in this 'scene' are disillusioned anarcho-unk squatter types, not former goths or former rvietheads/industrial fans. So, you got disillusioned with anarchy symbols and limited run 7" splits? Well, looks like you are finding they your new heroes with their "artfag" posturing and embossed foil runic digipak 'deluxe' editions are just as much of a let down.

    Maybe you just need to stop looking for some perfect hero to follow.

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  39. Anonymous said... "neither Lesley or any of the other Sol girls would bother to respond on here, which kind of speaks for itself in terms of much of the spurious conjectures flying around" – or maybe they're starting to wonder what the hell they've got themselves involved in?

    Everywhere one looks, there are links between this harmless music scene and the far right. Who's that on Patrick Harrington's Myspace, for instance – oh look, it's veteran neo-folker Rose McDowell and Standgericht aka SnowWWwhite......

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  40. "Everywhere one looks, there are links between this harmless music scene and the far right."

    Everywhere one looks, there are links to the far right. If we start opposing the links and the links to the links etc etc ... the real far right will just love it. The antifascist movement will have more non-fascist resistance to deal with. Why? Because you don't like fucking neo-folk, martial industrial or p.e and whatthefuck else and their fans and grandmothers cousins. Get the hell over it and think Conan, think.

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  41. Anonymous said... "If we start opposing the links and the links to the links etc etc ...". Before you blind us all with science, could someone simply explain why two of the leading lights of neo-folk – one from the Boyd Rice/Di6 axis, and the other a relative newcomer – should choose to link themselves to a living, breathing, card-carrying veteran fascist (as opposed to a silly 'fan page' for Stefan George or whatever)? It's not a difficult formulation, so do try to apply yourself for just a minute.

    "Everywhere one looks, there are links to the far right" – Not in my circle of friends, or in any aspect of my daily life. Speak for yourself, sweetie.

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  42. So, the gig passed off as the innocuous affair it always was, and the well-meaning energies of many LMHR people have been diverted and wasted in what amounts to a vindictive and absurd prank by a couple of fools (and their useful idiots) who have been busily building straw men in Nazi uniforms. Even the dim bulbs who turned up to "protest" the gig must have eventually realised that they had been taken for mugs.

    Stop sniggering at the back you two, because this isn't funny — you have diverted the attentions of genuine anti-racist activists towards absurdities and irrelevancies to further your own personal non-political vendettas. You have made some enemies for life. And no-one deserves it more than you.

    Well done, pricks — you know who you are!

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  43. pro-noise, anti-fascist26 Jun 2011 22:42:00

    It does not seem to have been discussed here that Michael Moynihan also wrote the foreword to Andrew King’s recently-published book of “Emblematic Paintings,” see:

    http://timelesszine.blogspot.com/2010/12/andrew-king-from-sol-invictus-orchestre.html

    Apparently this art book also includes rants about “art funds given to artists who's [sic] only merit is to praise multiculturalism of england,” see the comments of “FreakAnimalFinland” here:

    http://chondriticsound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=443123#p443123

    In the interests of a clear discussion, someone in possession of the Andrew King book should probably scan the Moynihan foreword as well as Andrew King’s introduction, making these scans available to WhoMakesTheNazis readers.

    As an aside, it should also be noted that when Andrew King played Portland, Oregon, USA in 2006, the event was hosted by Hex Magazine, see:

    http://www.myspace.com/hexmagazine/blog/190633342

    This is significant in light of Hex Magazine denying any involvement with metapolitical fascism, yet consistently overlapping with and involving figures from such a scene. See for example Hex editor Arrowyn Craban’s denials at:

    http://rosecityantifa.weebly.com/1/post/2010/12/allerseelen-on-tour-austrian-far-right-musical-project-on-west-coast-tour-playing-support-to-northwest-heavy-metal-act.html#comments

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  44. Sorry — there's no "rants" in King's book of emblematic paintings. And Moynihan's intro is quite sober. Anyone wanting frothing at the mouth will be sorely disappointed. I dare say that if WMTN post any images or full text from the book they will be rightly instructed to take them down, but you could always buy the book and find out for yourself. "In the interests of a clear discussion . . ." sounds more like "in the interest of saving me a few quid" from a cheapskate who wants cut-price titillation.

    I know some of you think you've smelled blood and you're giddy at the prospect of a chase and a bloody kill, but if you want to indulge in your own "anti-elitist" version of fox hunting, I suggest you look elsewhere. Really.

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  45. ”simply explain why two of the leading lights of neofolk – one from the Boyd Rice/Di6 axis, and the other a relative newcomer – should choose to link themselves to a living, breathing, card-carrying veteran fascist (as opposed to a silly 'fan page' for Stefan George or whatever)? ”

    It's the living, breathing, card-carrying veteran fascists I give a shit about, not some pranksters wishing to do an art project with them to shock and baffle. For reasons already pointed out. There are enough of them to keep your days busy, I promise. Was that too scientific for you? You deal in diluted dross. Look at this please: http://www.elegantmachinery.se/ The guy in the right corner is a living, breathing, card-carrying fascist firmly situated in parliament. You know, the kind with real power who causes real damage? I promise not to complain if you manage to stop an E.M gig.

    ”"Everywhere one looks, there are links to the far right" – Not in my circle of friends, or in any aspect of my daily life. Speak for yourself, sweetie. ”

    How very nice for you. I will speak for myself then, thank you. I hear racist comments outside my balcony. I see how the police treat the colored kids in my burb. I socialize with a lot of different people(as opposed to someone living a more protected life with well chosen acquaintances), so from my own experience there are enough connections where you might least expect it, both to opinions, individuals and organizations that rightly can be called far-right. Ever checked out the political connections and opinions in your own workplace/school? So you know there's no far-right elements there right? Know your friends parents well? The people they hang out with? A close friend of mine work with cases of discrimination in workplaces and so on. His stories would leave you sleepless. Please keep the answer serious next time, because my ribs still ache from my last opposing an anti-Mosque demo (strange as it may seem I didn't see one single goth/neofolker among the islamophobic protesters that time either), and it hurts like hell when I laugh. I'm probably just a fascist defender making all this up though. That would be convenient, wouldn't it, sweetie?

    Workers of the world unite, and beware of those who try to use your commitment for their own petty causes.

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  46. This place is hilarious. I can't even believe people think fascism is even a real threat anymore.


    Go find something better to do with your time instead of chasing around a *dead*, I repeat, *dead* ideology like fascism. Spend your time and energy on more important things rather than hound a dozen or so small acts that only a few thousand people listen on a regular basis.

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  47. Anonymous says: "It's the living, breathing, card-carrying veteran fascists I give a shit about, not some pranksters wishing to do an art project with them to shock and baffle."

    In your original comment, you discounted the fact that two figures from neo-folk who have revelled in the murky ambiguity of the mileau have chosen to make links with a long-standing fascist, Patrick Harrington. Your response suggests that this is not at all noteworthy, and rather than deal with a connection which most people would find surprising (given the continual denials of fascist engagement), you bring up Richard Jomshof, Sweden Democrat politician and member of synth-pop band Elegant Machinery.

    Both instances are of interest to anti-fascists, I'd say. On the one hand, McDowell and Snowwwy are resolutely 'underground' figures, which has allowed them leeway to play around with fascist imagery and symbolism. Harrington has been central to the National Front's 'Political Soldier' faction, from which neo-folk draws much of its inspiration.

    Jomshof, by contrast, is a full-time nationalist politician, whose lightweight musical activities carry no overt 'message' whatsoever, but who is undoubtedly of greater mainstream prominence. Should we concentrate on taking down the (presumably elected) populist politician for singing 'sweet nothings' as a hobby, at the expense of addressing the cultural groundswell which is providing a romantic entry-level to fascism? To imply that one instance is a 'distraction' from the real issues posed by the other is to set up a divisive false opposition, which most astute readers of this blog will recognise.

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  48. Furthermore, Anonymous says "Ever checked out the political connections and opinions in your own workplace/school?"

    The answer is yes, constantly – and I do my best to challenge racism, xenophobia and reactionary thinking wherever it occurs – so I can well do without a patronising lecture from someone who thinks that subcultures can be happily left to their own devices. History has shown the folly of that thinking, and if you are really as concerned with fighting fascism as you claim, then you'd do well to see the bigger picture.

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  49. Just Another Comment29 Jun 2011 02:44:00

    I have still not heard anyone give a good, reasonable explanation for why Moynihan associated with James Mason.

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  50. @ Just Another Comment: You'd have to ask those 'on the scene' 20 years ago — Adam Parfrey (Jewish) and Anton LaVey (ditto) were both instrumental, along with Moynihan, in publishing Mason's book, Siege (It has since been republished by another publisher). I imagine much of the appeal was Mason's anti-system, class war approach.
    But, not long after, Mason was generally shunned by everyone in that milieu for being a nutcase. As for why they tolerated him for the period that they did, you'd have to ask them, but, for the past ten years, Moynihan has kept much better company.

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  51. In my opinion, Moynihan didn't associate with Mason nor is there an indication that he agrees with his views. He just compiled Mason's writings (about which he learned probably at a time when he was interested in the underground's superstar Charlie Manson) so that everyone can form his or her own opinion about Mason. You can find a lot of such books (even about Hitler), and no-one would claim that the editor always adopts the views conveyed in the writings he edits. Btw, isn't this what you do with Wakeford & Co. (albeit without annoying denouncing phrases)?
    See also here: http://web.archive.org/web/20090626160033/http://wweek.com/html/leada081600.html

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  52. @Anon: "In my opinion, Moynihan didn't associate with Mason nor is there an indication that he agrees with his views"

    Whether he 'agrees with Mason's views' is an academic, 'how many angels can fit on a pinhead', type of question; it's enough that he's prepared to spend huge amounts of time (he tells the story of how he transcribed all of the texts personally twice, as he lost the first draft) and money (it's a lavish hardback production) producing and promoting the views of an extreme fascist and racist whose whole philosophy is geared toward incitement of hatred and violence towards Jews, gays, 'mixed-race' couples, socialists, anti-racists, etc.

    While we can argue ourselves into a coma trying to pin down precisely what Moynihan believes, it seems beyond all reasonable doubt that he is someone who has actively promoted the most extreme forms of fascism and racism. If you don't count promoting James Mason as promoting fascism, then it's hard to imagine what would count. The fact that what Mason adds to traditional Nazism and fascism is a renewed focus on individual terrorism and the hero-worshipping Charles Manson hardly makes his writings somehow more acceptable than standard fascist fare.

    On top of that, the stated intention of Mason's work is to make fascism attractive to a younger, more radical, 'counter-cultural' audience (as opposed to the socially conservative supporters of traditional US Nazism). This probably explains Moynihan's interest, as he has spent a lot of time himself looking for new ways to present essentially fascist ideas (through racist paganism, for instance, or through the connected ideas of de Benoist and the New Right).

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  53. If Andrew King is stupid enough to record this absolutly loathsome material and keep this sort of company, there is nothing that will change his veiws. Shining a light on it however is very valuable in that it allows people like me to see where our money goes when we buy his various output. I have collected his work in art and music for a long time and I was completely blindsided by this news, and am still just shocked. It's sad and mind boggling that he would make such a stupid career move. Desperate for attention? Controversy? I know another artist who was invited to contribute to the very same compilation who is far less well known than King and could have used publicity of any sort. They declined to participate after looking over the material. Who wouldn't who has any shred of integrity?
     
    The first I heard of his political views was a vague reference from another artist several years ago who knew him and said his politics had been causing him problems. It is hard not to think that his veiws have done him no favors in this vein, but I do not have to speculate about this much: I won't spend another penny on his work. And to the posters who insist that everyone who listens to such things have fascist lit filling their bookshelves: this is total garbage. None of the fans I know of DIJ for instance, kept listening or giving them money once the book came out and the extent to the subtext was exposed. We've all been duped and naive in the past but don't continue to support such things once we wake up. I do think Wakeford deserves a bit of a hard time, as it is not believable that he was unaware of the King material, though i am not sure how mcuh stronger a statement you can ask for from him than dropping king and making a completely unambiguous statement as he has just done. That said, Sol has lost it's shine for me as well after 20 years the revelations here.
     
    Mostly this is just a tragic, stupid turn of events, and total loss of integrity for someone whose work I really appreciated and collected for many years. It's hard to understand.

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  54. integrity |inˈtegritē|
    noun
    1 the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness : he is known to be a man of integrity.
    2 the state of being whole and undivided : upholding territorial integrity and national sovereignty.

    Well, that sounds like Andrew King to me.

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  55. "Note: This post was taken down by Blogger after they received a 'DCMA Takedown Notification'" - Here in the 21st century the DCMA is objectively much more harmful than fascism.

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  56. Just Another Comment3 Jul 2011 21:34:00

    But, not long after, Mason was generally shunned by everyone in that milieu for being a nutcase. As for why they tolerated him for the period that they did, you'd have to ask them, but, for the past ten years, Moynihan has kept much better company.

    As to Parfrey, I have no idea why he would get involved in publishing that fecal doorstop. Lavey? Come on, that guy was the biggest charlatan in the world, nothing he did surprises me, except in the sense of "how could a grown man do that and not be ashamed of himself" sort of way.

    The thing is...tolerating Mason in the first place shows such remarkably awful judgment that one is at a loss for words. It should have been pretty obvious from the start who and what he was. They distanced themselves from him? Good. But they could have saved themselves the trouble by not getting involved with him to begin with.

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  57. To the anonymous poster at 2 Jul 2011 13:42:00

    Which DIJ book are you talking about? I'm a pretty big fan. I still listen to him on a pretty regular basis and I've bought most of his albums up to the most recent one, except for the reissues that just seem like blatant cash grabs or don't appeal to me aesthetically. I'm not interested in political theory, and I think that some of the intricacies that are being discussed here are irrelevant, but I do hate racism and at this point I'm trying to make sure that I don't support any bands or labels in the various underground music scenes that are promoting or supporting it. It seems to me that these ideas really started to spread like cancer with the popularity of Burzum in the 90s, and unfortunately I was one of the people buying his albums. I have always given DIJ the benefit of the doubt due to his early involvement in anti-racist causes and the fact that I love his music so much. However, if this book confirms a racist agenda, that will have to end. Thanks.

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Please at least use a pseudonym so it's possible to follow your argument if you make multiple posts