Sunday, 7 November 2010

What Ends When the Symbols Shatter? My Time as a Death In June Fan

Guest Post by John Eden

One of the devices used by people who defend neo-Folk is the claim that its critics are outsiders who don’t understand the nuances of the genre. I’ve written this piece for a number of reasons, but mainly to show my perspective as someone who was there as a fan at the outset. Another argument is that none of the rhetoric and imagery matters, that it’s all a bit of a laugh which doesn’t make any difference in the real world. I would counter this by saying that it certainly made a difference to the beliefs of some of the people I knew.

What's Behind the Mask?

In 1987, at the ripe old age of 17, I asked the bloke behind the counter of Our Price if I could hear The Brown Book, an LP by a band called Death In June. I knew nothing about the group except that people from slightly less obscure bands in the industrial music scene made guest appearances. The sleeve gave very little away – a skull and the title of the album, embossed in gold leaf. The inserts were seriously weird – leaflets about occult supplies and some very sinister T-shirts. It sounded fantastic – nice and loud over the shop’s great system and headphones: dark ballads, weird imagery and simple folky songs.

The final track on side one was a dreamlike spoken word piece over a haunting soundscape. When it finished I handed over my cash. Death In June were one of the ultimate bands for fans who liked a bit of a treasure hunt. Very few clues were ever given away. Before Google or Discogs had even been thought of, this was quite exciting.

Putting the pieces of the jigsaw together became my new obsession, but when I saw the finished picture I was older and wiser and didn’t like what I saw. The skull on the cover was a Totenkopf and one of the songs on the album was an acapella version of 'Horst Wessel'. These were the first steps in the “are they dodgy or aren’t they?” game that Death In June plays with their fans. The consensus seems to be that those in the know can get off on this elitist / faux-Nazi imagery without actually being a Fascist.

And of course, I wasn’t a Fascist. I’d spent a typical British seventies childhood playing with model soldiers, Action Men and Airfix models. I read 'Commando Comics' which were available in all the local newsagents. Me and my mates played 'war' and we knew that the Nazis were the bad guys. Not least because my grandfather had died fighting them in World War 2. I’d had my first encounter with actual Fascists at the tender age of 11. I was in the school canteen for lunch and the only available seat was next to three older boys who I didn’t know. When I sat down one of them asked me, with a disgusted sneer on his face, if I liked “little black boys?”. To my eternal shame I replied that I didn’t. I guess it was partly his tone of voice and the fact that they were bigger than me. I certainly had no problem with the black kids in my class. My reply animated my fellow diners. They told me it was cool to sit with them and asked if I interested in joining the Young National Front. One of them started listing, from memory, the NF’s manifesto. I realised this was pretty fucked up and started making my excuses. They didn’t seem to mind that much.

Lots of the desks at school had 'NF' written on them and you’d see their stickers on bus stops, as graffiti etc. It was part of the landscape, along with anarchy or CND symbols and the iconography of various bands. As I got older and bolder I used tear down racist stickers and cover up the graffiti.

I Ain't Nuthin' But A Gorehound

I had an enquiring mind. Actually that’s a rationalisation. I had (and still have) a tendency to be slightly obsessive. This is a trait I have in common with a lot of people who collect records or are involved with other subcultures. I used to devour the music press, trying to find out everything I could about music I liked the sound of. If it was attached to an extreme ideology then all the better, more stuff to delve into.There were swathes of other music I liked – synthpop, punk, postpunk, hip hop, goth, indie, reggae, whatever. But industrial music was unique in giving me access to an entire subterranean world of strangeness – art, magick, revolution, sexual deviance. There was a lot to get your teeth into.
I felt that Throbbing Gristle’s concept of an Information War was useful – that some things were kept hidden because they were so powerful. This was a good rationale, before the internet, for checking out all manner of extreme phenomena.

I liked the starkness of Death In June’s imagery, words and music – probably in that order. I guess there might have been something in there which reminded me of those childhood war games. Something heroic and male – romantic and bleak. I bought their records and defended them in discussions with friends. I rationalised, with lines fed from interviews in fanzines, that they were simply exploring the darker side of human nature – they didn't believe any of this stuff themselves. And anyway, Douglas P was gay, so there was no way he or anyone he worked with could be a Nazi, right?

When I moved to London in the late eighties I regularly visited the Vinyl Experience record store in Hanway Street. The shop was a focal point for the emerging 'apocalyptic folk' genre (it later evolved into World Serpent Distribution). I picked up a bunch of records and ended up going to what I guess are now legendary gigs like Current 93 and Sol Invictus at Chislehurst caves. I was also involved with the fringes of anti-Fascist campaigning at that time. The Nazi skinhead group Blood & Honour had opened a shop near my college and its bonehead customers were causing some grief in the area. I remember getting some funny looks off people I was protesting with when they saw my Death In June totenkopf badge. I removed it, telling myself that they wouldn’t understand the ambiguity of it all.

I suppose it’s fair to say that I had a fascination with the aesthetics of Fascism but was, like most people, repelled by the ideas and practise. Unfortunately it soon emerged that not everyone was quite so discerning.

Don’t Eat That Stuff Off The Sidewalk

In the early nineties some cassettes of US Christian radio talkshows circulated around the underground scene I had immersed myself in. Evangelical preacher and self-publicist Bob Larson had taken it upon himself to interview Nikolas Schreck (of the group Radio Werewolf) and industrial noise stalwart Boyd Rice   (who had launched a 'think tank' called the Abraxas Foundation). Both were involved with the Church of Satan, which I knew little of. The cassettes were very entertaining, with Nikolas and Boyd being relentless in their criticism of Christianity and a whole heap more.

So far so good, but Schreck and Rice also expressed social Darwinist ideas and a 'might is right' philosophy. Boyd described himself as 'an occult Fascist' but went on to say that he didn’t mean that in a political way. These concepts also formed the basis of his album Music, Martinis and Misanthropy. At the time they seemed quite exciting: daring, but also troubling. I don’t remember fully embracing it all, but it certainly piqued my obsessive curiosity.

I inevitably stocked up on Church of Satan reading material to have a look. Other books like Apocalypse Culture and Schreck’s Manson File added a new slant to what I’d previously seen as being an anarchist or left wing perspective. Slowly, friends who were more into this scene than me started spouting a load of old bollocks:

“All this stuff about how ‘the weak should be crushed by the strong’ – you’d understand that if you sat on the top deck of bus with me in South London.” 

“I truly believe in having society run by a nobility – especially when I see all the human waste queuing up to buy their lottery tickets on a Saturday afternoon.”

“Why should I have to come in at night and turn on the TV to see a bunch of stuff about bhangra – this is London!”

People who might previously have talked about anarchism, or William Burroughs, or Situationist theory were now coming out with the sort of right wing shit you’d read in the Daily Express. This led to a number of heated debates in pubs and at parties, with predictably mixed results. (Each of those quotes is real, I remember them clearly because they wound me up so much. But I'm not going to name and shame people – at least two of them have since expressed regret about talking such rubbish.)

How Far Can Too Far Go?

In the mid-nineties there was a gradual intensification of what was being said in fanzine interviews. I’m still not clear if the artists were trying to outdo each other, or if there was a testing of boundaries involved – seeing how much of an already existing agenda could be revealed without any comeback.
The arrival of Michael Moynihan’s Blood Axis project in 1995 marked a significant gear change. I picked up the notorious issue of No Longer, a FANzine from Tower Records in Piccadilly, and read Moynihan’s comments about wanting to reopen the gas chambers, but how he’d be a lot more lenient in terms of the admission criteria. The 'zine also had an interview with James Mason, an actual Nazi who clearly wasn’t exploring any ambiguities. Blood Axis’ first album got rave reviews in all the right places, but was laughably awful.

Around this time I also found out about Tony Wakeford having been a member of the National Front. He brushed this aside in interviews saying that he hadn’t really been a member – he’d just been knocking about with some people who were into historical re-enactments, some of whom knew some people who were a bit dodgy. Which more recently has been revealed as being an outright lie. The fanzines I was reading also started to pick up on Black Metal. I sent away for some  Burzum 'zines and was revolted by Varg Vikernes’ blatant anti-Semitism.

Zombie Dance

Gradually all this stuff started to become de rigueur, like a new fashion. It was actually comical how rapidly the subculture became an identikit set of ideas and themes. I satirised this with a pretend fanzine called Blood & Fire  (named after the reggae tune by Niney The Observer, but also very similar to the title of an early NON album). It seemed to amuse the right people, but there wasn’t nearly enough criticism going on.

A lot of the howls of protest were from the mainstream anti-Fascist sources who'd also had problems with Joy Division, New Order, Throbbing Gristle, and even Front 242 in the past. People who were actually fans of the music displayed a staggering lack of political nous. Despite priding themselves on being independently minded (not being part of the 'herd mentality' was the new thing, right?) they swallowed any old bollocks which was on offer as long as it was wrapped up in a limited edition embossed runic cover.

The final straw for me came with the arrival of issue 6 of Esoterra magazine. This had started out as a really good occulture fanzine that had amazing graphics and in depth features and interviews with all sorts of interesting people. I’d been distributing a few copies in the UK (alongside a bunch of other stuff) and had baulked a little at the obligatory Blood Axis feature in issue 5. Issue 6 of Esoterra included a full page advert for Canadian Nazi skinhead band Rahowa. Their name was an acronym for RAcial HOly WAr. Here was a group with blatant connections to political Fascism (in the form of the wacko World Church of the Creator). Rahowa’s singer, George Burdi, founded Resistance Records, the biggest neo-Nazi skinhead label and distributor outside of Europe. He was imprisoned for violently assaulting a female anti-Fascist protestor.

It was clear to me that the more articulate parts of the Nazi music scene were trying converge with the more retarded parts of the industrial/occulture scene. These were people I didn’t want anything to do with. The same shitheads I’d shared a school canteen table with, the same knuckle dragging boneheads who had assaulted Asian students near my college. All of them worshipping the regime that killed my grandfather. I ended up having an argument with the editor of Esoterra and not distributing that issue. He informed me that the group had offered him money for a whole lot more advertising if he published an interview with them, but he had declined.

The next issue featured my interview with Amodali of Mother Destruction – a brilliant group who managed to avoid all the stiff-right-arm posturing which seemed to be becoming the norm. In retrospect this was probably my last ditch attempt to draw a line in the sand and show that it was possible to be concerned with dark, occult material, but not be a Fascist. I was particularly encouraged that the group included Patrick Leagas, formerly of Death In June, who also expressed his frustration to me with the nudge nudge, wink wink nature of what was unfolding. But we were both pushing against the tide. I climbed the cliffs to dry land whilst Patrick seems to have re-immersed himself in the icy waters of neovolkisch runic twiddling.

It gradually dawned on me that the music was becoming less and less interesting. It was pointless hanging about and watching an entire scene go down the toilet musically and ideologically at such an exciting time for dance music. My philosophical needs continued to be satisfied by the whole 'post-situ' scene, including the refreshingly un-sinister Association of Autonomous Astronauts, London Psychogeographical Association and many others.

Tear It Up

I never formally 'left' the industrial / neofolk scene, I just found more interesting things to do. Things which involved people who were less grim and music that was much better. Towards the end of the nineties I’d have a pop at things which came my way, but I no longer went looking for trouble. A good example would be my (quite ranty, in retrospect) review of the third issue of the UK fanzine Compulsion:
"The subtitle is 'Surveying the Heretical', which I think highlights my problems with this (and the 'scene' as a whole). Doing a survey suggests that it's just a report of what's going on – someone else has to analyse it all. But obviously this isn't the whole story. Anyone who puts out a 'zine goes through a process of selection, deciding what goes in and what stays out. It isn't like someone went through the racks at Tower Records and pulled out every 10th CD or something, is it? So the editor must either like the material, or at the very least find it intriguing. But, oh no, there's a 'Views and beliefs expressed' statement on page 2, so we have to guess, eh?

This wouldn't be a problem were it not for the fact that Compulsion contains some pretty dubious people, some of whom have worldviews that I consider thoroughly objectionable. For example there's a puff piece on ex-American Nazi Party organiser James Mason and his Manson-inspired Universal Order. I'm sure James is fantastically exciting, but it fucks me off that he can blandly suggest that the Tate killings were great because they were all "drug users, drug dealers, Jews, anti-racists and homosexuals" without even the teeniest bit of editorial comment.

Mason's publisher is also interviewed. Unsurprisingly he's also happy to be called a Fascist and we even get to read his (ooh how heretical!) views, though thankfully we're spared his usual spiel about re-opening the concentration camps this time. Admittedly Compulsion isn't all blokes with an unhealthy fixation with uniforms and the music of Wagner. The Boredoms, Foetus, Jim Rose and the excellent Somewhere in Europe are also covered. It's just that anyone who expresses an ideology in any depth is completely reactionary. That is clearly one of the editor's major interests, but any conclusions he's made or insights he's gained are missing completely.

It's not even as if the editor is a Fascist, it's just the usual laziness that seems to permeate industrial culture these days. Nobody is ever challenged about their views, not because people agree with them, but because people just aren't bothered. The 'scene' seems to have ditched Throbbing Gristle's ideas of actively researching extremes and is now just a darker version of MTV, spoon-feeding extremity for the sake of it. The excuse is always that people can make up their own minds, which no doubt is true – there just doesn't seem to be any evidence of it happening.

Most of the people I've discussed this with have a pretty unsophisticated analysis of it all, despite all the elitist "oh we are so much more intelligent than the masses" bollocks that goes with the territory. The fans either just get off on the 'mystery' of whether such and such a group is 'dodgy', nudge nudge, wink wink, or try to get themselves off the hook by arguing that so and so can't be a Fascist because he isn't racist (as if the two were the same thing). There are too many people who still think that Nazis are all evil, stupid and ugly. That sort of liberalism just leaves them ill-equipped to critically examine anything resembling a considered argument for (for example) racial segregation, or stopping all welfare and letting people starve to death. I'm not suggesting that every paragraph should come with a dogmatic PC analysis, or that such views shouldn't be allowed to appear in print. That isn't a situation I will ever be able to (or want to) enforce.

However, I am not happy to just uncritically consume people's ideas. It is not in my interest to give Fascists or their fans an easy ride. Perhaps that makes me the biggest heretic of all."

Sometime shortly afterwards, the editor of Compulsion started distributing a US industrial fanzine called Ohm Clock which featured Rahowa on the front cover, and had an extensive interview with them inside. Oh, and quite a lot of adverts for them.

In the summer of 1998 someone else who I had considered a good friend called me up to discuss some industrial CDs he was releasing to see if I would be interested in reviewing them. I wasn't. He went on to have a rant about the power of the media and how 'they' never told the whole truth. Sentiments I wholly agreed with, until he started referring to the brutal racist murder of James Byrd Jnr. My friend was outraged that none of the media reports had mentioned that Byrd had been in prison previously with his murderers. I felt that the salient point was that three white men (two of whom were known white supremacists) had chained a black man to the back of their truck and dragged him two miles along a road, killing him. We were clearly getting our analysis and worldview from completely different sources.

Kizmiaz

Since then neofolk seems to have continued in this vein with people getting less and less shy about describing themselves as Fascists, working with former members of the National Front, namedropping Evola, bandying about terms like eurocentrism (aka “white pride”) and dressing up in uniforms like an amateur tribute to “’Allo ‘Allo”. I sold my Death in June / Current 93, etc., collection on Ebay (or tried to; “The Brown Book” is banned for being “hateful or discriminatory”). I did this partly to finance new projects and partly just to get rid of it all. Quite a few of the people who emailed me to discuss my auctions reminded me of my younger enthusiastic self. I wasn’t about to give them a lecture or stop them having fun. If someone had done that to me 25 years ago it would just have confirmed how 'out there' and dangerous I was. Let’s be clear – enjoying Death In June records as a teenager didn’t make me a Fascist. What I hope this piece has shown is that there is a bigger picture, a wider context than that. There is merit in extreme music and culture, but there are also pitfalls.

A lot of people in 'alternative' scenes like to pretend that politics don’t matter to them. To me that means that they just haven’t thought through their politics. It is precisely this kind of ignorance that can provide a cover for people who are explicitly political to operate and influence the cultural landscape.
History shows us that people are attracted to far right politics for all sorts of reasons, some of them ideological, some of them social. Any mass movement will happily incorporate “apolitical” people who like the violence, or the uniforms, or the music, or the kudos of being weird, the feeling of belonging to an exclusive club.

I think the critique being developed on this blog and elsewhere is long overdue. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading the contributions here and the discussions they have provoked. Ultimately it's up to people to decide for themselves where they draw the line, which artists they support and what they believe in. I don't really regret my dalliance with neofolk (bar having given my money to some people I now despise) because I think ultimately I made the right decisions.

95 comments:

  1. I can respect this article. Unlike the owner of this blog he doesn't preach and isn't telling people what to do. Eden used to like DIJ, had a change of heart and that is that.

    "Blood Axis’ first album got rave reviews in all the right places, but was laughably awful"

    This made me laugh out loud. Too right! BA is laughably awful.

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  2. I'm glad you found it useful but I think your comment about "not telling people what to do" is a bit simplisitic.

    I'd hope it's obvious from what I've written that I think fascism should be opposed and that subcultures that give fascists an easy ride should be treated with suspicion.

    The form that anti-fascism takes is dependent on the form that fascism takes. In some cases satire, or critical commentary is appropriate. Sometimes other forms of opposition need to come into play.

    This isn't about "live and let live", but I do realise that moralising is counter productive. Having said that, I don't think that the articles on this site are actually telling anyone to DO anything.

    Certainly it would be good if more people thought about these issues and came to the same conclusions as me. :-)

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  3. Nice one, John - I think we have very similar experiences on this subject, right down to the timing of the wake up call ("Wait a minute - do I really need to listen to a group called Blood Axis?"). As someone who knew a few of the people involved, at least on the level of having a few drinks, it was humbling to realise that I had been fooling myself about these types, and I feel slightly betrayed to realise they are very happy to support and use one's 'benefit of the doubt in the name of art', the mealy mouthed f*ckface tw*ts.

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  4. "The 'scene' seems to have ditched Throbbing Gristle's ideas of actively researching extremes and is now just a darker version of MTV, spoon-feeding extremity for the sake of it."

    That`s it, no more words needed. Many thanx for your thoughts. You said it much better than me, but i have gone the same way as you. For me it was Boyd Rice and his facist remarks that got me off the track and into a much more relaxed contact with this scene. I have sold my DIJ records and som off my Rice albums, but kept all my C93 records.

    You wrote that you sold your C93 records also. Do you think they are into the same game as DIJ and B. Rice? I know that they have had several musicaly projects together, but has not thought off C93 as into the facist things, as among others DIJ.

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  5. Tell me this; how does listening to a very borderline MAYBE SOMEDAY a nazi band makes you be a nazi, OR support them? It has about as much effect on the scene as taking down nazi stickers.

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    Replies
    1. because when no one pushes back, it creates space for more out and out fascism.

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  6. And I really do hope my comment gets at least approved, because I want to understand this mentality. Some of you are really taking this to the extreme..

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  7. Tell me this; how does listening to a very borderline MAYBE SOMEDAY a nazi band makes you be a nazi, OR support them? It has about as much effect on the scene as taking down nazi stickers.

    Well, I don't think anyone's saying it makes you a Nazi or a supporter of Nazis, I think John's just arguing that none of it's very helpful, all this farting around with Totenkopfs and trying to scare people.

    Paul Shake the Nation

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  8. @LeGuest: Don't underestimate how far subcultures/scenes help shape the outlook of their participants. I don't say that based on a grand theory but from my own experience (with punk, TG and beyond). My outlook today has been strongly shaped by my engagement with such things. Such cultures are not cut off from everyday life, but for the participants they may be one of the main ways of experiencing life.

    It seems to me that some people want to have it both ways: if you ask them why they are interested in aspects of this culture they say that it is valid because it tries to deal with crucial questions. But if you point out that in many cases it provides radical right-wing answers to those questions then you are told that it doesn't really matter as the culture is just a bit of harmless fun and nothing really depends on it.

    I'll say it again - I think subcultures/scenes/milieus help provide people (not 'other people', but people including myself) with frameworks for living and experiencing their world. As a TG fan 30 years ago I was regularly told that the music embodied dubious politics. I think the people who said that were wrong, but if they said the same thing today about the successors to bands like TG I think they would be justified. I don't think that the people who listen to such music are 'lost causes' and dupes - if I thought that I wouldn't bother writing for this blog. The culture may provide a 'framework for experience' but it is still capable of reflexive critical examination by the participants - that, after all, is how the participants learn from their experience. In that case it is worth criticising the radical right wing content of some of the ideology and attitudes being promoted in the hope that others will take such arguments on board when deciding what they themselves want to take from the music and the ideas.

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  9. "I don't say that based on a grand theory but from my own experience (with punk, TG and beyond). My outlook today has been strongly shaped by my engagement with such things. Such cultures are not cut off from everyday life, but for the participants they may be one of the main ways of experiencing life"

    If some punk bands have the power to turn certain segments of their fanbase into busybodies who tell others what they can or can't do then maybe that's a good reason to stop people from listening to them.

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  10. I found this article -- and the site in general -- very stimulating, having also had periods of being intrigued by the music of DiJ, Non and C93 and periods of being repelled by its imagery and associations. I haven't sold any of the CDs but wouldn't have listened to DiJ and Non in years. But Current 93 is another matter. Like the anonymous above, I would like to see an analysis of David Tibet's themes, lyrics and images. Much of his work from the mid-late 80s seems repellent in similar ways to the above (references to Imperium, swastikas, Hitler as Kalki) but I wonder whether he has rejected it since. Anyway, keep up this good work.

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  11. In terms of Current 93 - I personally think things are less clear cut. Certainly Tibet has worked with some dodgy people. Stewart Home has an account on his site saying that he (Tibet) had visited a National Front meeting with Tony Wakeford.

    Hopefully Current 93 can be covered in more depth here at some point.

    Like I say, people have to decide where to draw the line themselves. For example I kept all my Coil records, and obviously John Balance has worked with DIJ.

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  12. I'd love to see an article about Tibet and C93. Maybe someone here would like to write it? Personally I'd have to do a lot of work before commenting myself as I'm not so familiar with Tibet's vast output. My impression of Tibet is that he is part naif, part charlatan and part public schoolboy narcissist. I have never read an interview with him that made any sense at all. He seems to like to flirt with Fascist-Esoteric ideas (or he did in the past) but also keep them at a distance, as if he didn't believe in what he was signing about - unlike those people who 'keep a convenient distance' only in the interests of plausible deniability, but seem to actually believe the banal ideas embodied in their music.

    Tibet sometimes looks to me like a man who actually has no ideas at all, just a series of minor, silly obsessions (Louis Wain, Austin Spare, Apocrypha, etc.) To be fair, I did read some Thomas Ligotti after he mentioned him and thought it interesting, and I liked a few of his very early recordings, especially where he's working with Stapleton, but his 'folkier' stuff seems pointless to me: I mean, it's formulaic and as folk music it sucks. Doc Boggs is a lot scarier. I particularly enjoyed this review of one of his more obscure albums.

    As for selling albums, etc., I wouldn't sell a record just because it was made by a Fascist or a fellow-traveller, not if it was any good. On the other hand, I certainly wouldn't buy records made by Fascists, just because I don't want to subsidise their propaganda efforts (and I could certainly get the music anyway through P2P). I don't think it's worth moralising about owning the records - it's the bad aesthetics and the shit politics that matter.

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  13. Yes absolutely, I hope people aren't thinking that just because I sold all my DIJ/C93 albums that this is what I expect everyone to do.

    Getting rid of the records was a product of thinking about the aesthetics, politics and ideas involved with this subculture - and rejecting them. (Also running out of space on my record shelves, ha ha).

    It's the process of critical thinking which is important here, not telling "others what they can or can't do" as Anonymous bafflingly suggests above.

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  14. @anon: "busybodies who tell others what they can or can't do"

    Let's call this the 'Kevin and Perry' school of dialectics: ie. you whine like a child when the grown ups tell you it isn't such a great idea to shove a pencil up your nose.

    You can't have it both ways; risking your soul and sanity by 'exploring' dark and controversial ideas and politics... and then whining like a baby when confronted about it. If we didn't confront you it wouldn't be controversial. Get it? As William Bennett once put it: Try and be Grateful!!

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  15. I'm not a Current 93 expert, but I'd say that the comment above about David Tibet being "part naif, part charlatan and part public schoolboy narcissist" is about right, and I like C93.

    Tibet has worked with dodgy people, but he's also worked with a lot of people in general. In recent years we've seen the likes of Nick Cave, Will Oldham, Antony (of Antony and the Johnsons), Ben Chasny (of Six Organs of Admittance and Comets on Fire) appear on his albums. Nothing against those people, of course, but I'm guessing that Tibet isn't too choosy about his friends.

    My copy of Thunder Perfect Mind is a Durtro/Jnana reissue that looks to have appeared in 2005. In the liner notes, "Hitler as Kalki" is prefaced with "To my father who fought Hitler" and the song is explained at the end of the lyrics (note: this is the only song he explains) as "Some people think that Hitler was Kalki, the tenth and final avatar or incarnation of the Hindu God Vishnu, who comes on a white horse to destroy the cosmos at the end of each world cycle. Hitler was certainly an absolute and hideous form of AntiChrist, one of many to come, and a sign of the approaching return of Christ. I wait in hope for destruction to pass and a new Heaven and Earth to reappear as the recreated Paradise of the Pantocrator. Watch for the thief in the night and the knocking at the door."

    I have a hard time understanding that (I'm only very vaguely aware of the Hitler/Kalki thing in fascist/occult circles) I suspect probably mainly because it doesn't actually make any sense, but I'm curious if this explanation appeared in older versions of the album because it seems to be Tibet trying to (kind of?) distance himself from his earlier beliefs or at least trying to make them mesh better with his current apocalyptic Christian beliefs.

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  16. I find it hard to see how anyone could accept both that Hitler was Kalki (and therefore an avatar of the divine Vishnu) and that he was also an AntiChrist; unless, that is, you took the Christian fundamentalist position that foreign Gods are devils, which would be almost (though not quite) as bad as thinking that Hitler was Kalki full stop.

    It could be Tibet trying to dig himself out of a hole, or maybe he really is just genuinely very, very confused.

    The significance of Kalki is that it's the form Vishnu takes when he returns to end the 'Kali Yuga' (the final stage of decline of the previous cycle of history) and initiate the complete rebirth of the world, kicking off an entirely new cycle of history. The Apocalypticism of this vision combines neatly with Fascist ideas about the need for a complete rebirth of the Nation ('Palingenetic Nationalism'). It's a heady concoction that combines fantasies of total destruction with a belief in iron laws of history that both mandate and justify such destruction.

    On a side note, Ouspensky argued that this way of looking at 'eternal return' in the Vedas was idiotically literal, and that the cycles of history shouldn't be thought of as happening one after the other in series, but instead happening all together. That would imply a very different sense of necessity, will and action, and arguably it underlies Nietzsche's understanding. But the occult mind can't grasp that, and absorbs these incredibly subtle intuitions instead as if they described mechanical inevitability on a cosmic scale, to which they can surrender by throwing themselves into it.

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  17. Reading between the lines of this post got me wondering, are the Cramps Fascist? I hope not. I love the Cramps.

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  18. Might I point out that David Tibet is an artist with an interest in the mystical and the bizarre, and not a professor of systematic theology?

    Trying to construct a coherent worldview on Tibet's behalf, which encompasses everything he has espoused at one point or another (Noddy, anyone?) might be a fun thing to do over a few pints, but it gets a bit weird when you try to do it to find out whether he's a fascist or not.

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  19. "You can't have it both ways; risking your soul and sanity by 'exploring' dark and controversial ideas and politics... and then whining like a baby when confronted about it"

    Hilarious! As if this whole blog isn't one long whinge from start to finish.

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  20. The difference is that no one here is complaining about criticism and argument, but rather we're trying to create it; you, on the other hand, have nothing to say for yourself except to complain at being criticised at all, as you just amply demonstrated.

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  21. @Bassington: I think my speculation above that Tibet "is part naif, part charlatan and part public schoolboy narcissist", and "has no ideas at all, just a series of minor, silly obsessions" does suggest that I don't take him entirely seriously as 'a systematic theologist'.

    As you say, he has "an interest in the mystical and the bizarre", but such interests are more than merely logically compatible with an interest in Fascism too, especially since his most dubious collaborators are precisely esoteric Fascists with similar beliefs in the uncanny and the 'occult' (in the widest sense, which includes, eg., the belief that the Jews exert a hidden, 'occult' influence over events). Of course, as I've also said, neither does that prove that Tibet himself was ever a Fascist. Personally I doubt it.

    My guess is that Tibet is quite capable of knowingly working with Fascists precisely because he is something of a charlatan who doesn't take anything entirely seriously. But in that case his opportunism provides cover for other people who really do want to promote the ideas of the Radical Right, helping them gain a wider audience in the neo-Folk scene / economy, in which Tibet is a major player. If (as seems likely) he isn't any kind of Fascist it's still a major problem that he promotes people who are. It's all very well dedicating a record "To my father, who fought Hitler", but if you then collaborate with people like Michael Moynihan, who thinks that Hitler was too soft, you deserve at least to be called a hypocrite. Perhaps Tibet is even cynical enough to exploit even the memory of his own father to protect himself from legitimate criticism.

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    Replies
    1. David Tibet distanced himself from the likes of boyd, michael and douglas a long time ago. The earlier neofolk scene which tibet was a big part did use fascist imagery but was by no means nazi but as the scene developed tibet realsed some people on the scene were involved in far right politics and distanced himself from them.

      Delete
  22. Having said that, there are even some anti-Fascists who think that working with Moynihan isn't a problem - a position I find astonishing.

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  23. A friend assures me that the point about Tibet's father having fought Hitler is on the original release. If that's true then I'd like to withdraw what I said above about his possibly using his father's memory as a shield against criticism.

    Elsewhere Tibet has said:

    "Since this New Year of 1993 I have been reflecting on questions people have asked me concerning the song Hitler As Kalki (SDM) and my views on Hitler. I am in no doubt: Hitler was Antichrist; Jesus killed Hitler - eventually... We can hope that it should have been much sooner, but for whatever reasons it was not to be. Unfortunately since Hitler's death, all around his cruel spirit lives and multiplies, and many antichrists now surround us. In the dark corners of the nightworld he and his followers wait, emerging once more and more into the day. I remember my father telling me of his experience as a member of the first British troops to enter the extermination camp of Belsen, and the hell on earth he found there. So then, perhaps this earth is hell, but it rests to us to ensure that we defend our own hearts against the call from the abyss. May all be happy; may all be aware. The Little Shining Man approaches. Terrify not Man, lest God terrify you.

    David Tibet, London, January 10, 1993.

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  24. I'm sorry, but your entire site is absurd -- pretending these poorly informed poseurs,attention seekers and opportunists are a problem -- is way off track : these people, the absurd David Tibet, and that DIJ idiot, are just luvvie narcissists with a comparatively small group of followers who read silly books by Ernst Junger, Evola and Guenon, and when they get 'really radical',they probably have a pint of real ale, put on an army coat, and read some silly book by George Sorel.

    If you read these authors, you'll see how silly they really are, and how nonthreatening they are too. ( The worst of them, Evola, did , indeed, inspire some nut cases, but in the wider scheme of things, it was not a long lasting threat. Even Junger , who had some silly 'War Picture Library' fascist-elitist ideas, was not part of the Nazi fold, and ended up with resigned Stoic/ Max Stirner like ideals.)

    It's all nonsense -- David Tibet....wooooh, scary. Dougie P, with his gloomy army gear....Please....

    You know, if you really wanted to undercut and undermine fascism -- you'd be far better off doing it at source, and helping solve problems amongst the white underclass, such as helping areas like Bradford, Preston and Oldham with sub standard insecure housing and job shortages.

    But I guess you can't be arsed to 'slum it' with poor white people to help solve things can you?

    And -- That is precisely why real fascism ( not the David Tibet version ) will grow -- because the middle class avoid dealing with the real roots of much 'poor white' discontent, or else the middle class channel their energy into scare mongering about people like Boyd Rice, that silly guy who runs a Tropicana Hawaii theme bar in USA somewhere, and has a hard stare on record covers, and goes on about carny , ham it up 'occult' stuff as hype to sell a few dated records..... He knows how to sell a product to gullible people...

    And it is far better to go on about some obscure "Industrial' folk artists who dance around wearing silly army jackets and pretend Aryan symbols.

    There is a really pointless narcissism and navel gazing inherent in every page of your blog.

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  25. "Reading between the lines of this post got me wondering, are the Cramps Fascist? I hope not. I love the Cramps."

    This made me laugh, but I suppose I'd better respond in case someone believes that's the point I'm trying to make with the subtitles.

    I think the Cramps are an excellent example of people using crazy imagery to enhance their music which isn't fascist in any way.

    I've previously written about them here:
    http://www.uncarved.org/blog/2008/06/readers-cramp/

    But this quote from Ivy should make everything clear (I hope!)

    “The failure of outsiders to acknowledge the influence of blues and R&B on The Cramps is an omission bordering on racism. Rockabilly is rooted in the blues and we consider ourselves a blues band.”

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  26. Pseudonym - please don't assume that because peope write stuff here they are only doing that and nothing else.

    I live on a council estate and am involved with community politics also.

    Furthermore I hope my article illustrates that all this arsing about with nazi imagery does draw some people closer to actual political fascism.

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  27. Pseudonym says "if you really want to undercut and undermine fascism--you'd be far better off doing it at source, and helping solve problems amongst the white underclass..." in towns like Preston, Bradford and Oldham...

    Does Pseudonym mean like the BNP try to 'help' the white underclass?

    Interesting that Pseudonym pretty much paints us all as middle class social workers with his talk of being unable to 'slum' it with poor white people. Unless I missed my guess I don't think there are any ex-members of the Bullingdon Club posting here.

    Let us be clear Pseudonym as someone living in the North I have clocked your not so subtle dog whistle appeal to the authentic white working class - the sort of appeal that Nick Griffin is not averse to making.

    Unemployment, lack of social housing, poor wages blight Northern towns like Preston, Bradford and Oldham and they fall hard on all sections of the working class and they fall the hardest on the Asian working class communities especially those descended from Pakistan and Bangladesh.

    White and Asian working class people are all in it together against Cameron, Clegg and the bosses busy trashing their lives even more.

    Your daft whine reduces itself to the argument that the white working class have been let down by...this blog. That really is narcissistic!

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  28. One of the main problems 'white working class' people face in towns like Preston, Bradford and Oldham (not coincidentally, that's almost a tour guide to recent EDL riots and provocations) is being treated as having 'white working class' interests which divide them against non-white workers. Racist scum would like nothing more than to help the Tories out by splitting the working class in two like that, turning white workers against their Asian, Muslim, Black, etc., neighbours and co-workers at the exact moment when they need unity. That would let the real enemy - those currently planning billions of pounds of cuts in welfare, social services, the NHS and education, and mass redundancies - off the hook completely.

    As for whether it's worth addressing Fascists and Racists in neo-Folk, my philosophy is that if someone shits all over my house I try and clean up the whole mess, not just the biggest turds.

    I'm taking it for granted that no one here other than Pseudonymous believes that what is being said is that Occult Nazi musos can be criticised but the BNP and EDL should be left alone. As the saying goes, it's possible to fart and chew gum at the same time: obviously Fascism should be opposed in culture, in politics, on the streets, and wherever else Fascists stick their head over the parapet.

    And as for anti-Fascists being nice, well-behaved and middle class - tell it to AFA.

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  29. I'd like to go back to David Tibet. Whether or not he is a fascist, he is clearly complicit in covering up for fascists like Tony Wakeford. Take what Graeme quotes (and I'm sure Graeme quoted it in good faith, but what Tibet writes isn't in good faith):

    ""Hitler as Kalki" is prefaced with "To my father who fought Hitler" and the song is explained at the end of the lyrics (note: this is the only song he explains) as "Some people think that Hitler was Kalki, the tenth and final avatar or incarnation of the Hindu God Vishnu, who comes on a white horse to destroy the cosmos at the end of each world cycle. Hitler was certainly an absolute and hideous form of AntiChrist, one of many to come, and a sign of the approaching return of Christ. I wait in hope for destruction to pass and a new Heaven and Earth to reappear as the recreated Paradise of the Pantocrator. Watch for the thief in the night and the knocking at the door."

    The argument that Tibet can't be a fascist because his father fought against Hitler is ludicrous. Many British (and American etc.) neo-Nazis of the latter part of the 20th century had fathers who fought on the Allied side in World War II. Likewise it is possible to be a fascist and fight against Hitler because there are a variety of fascist doctrines (and Hitler even had fascist rivals within the Nazi party, not just outside it). Indeed, these fascist rivals to Hitler (some of whom fought against him) number prominently among the so-called 'second revolutionaries' who are obsessed over and admired by the various Death In June and ex-Death In June members (and let's not forget in at least one case we are also talking about an 1980s official National Front member) Tibet has worked so closely with over the past 25 years.

    Tibet dedicating this song to his father who fought against Hitler ends up being complicit with the arguments of those he works with who we know are fascists. Ultimately it is just part and parcel of the Tony Wakeford school of lying and omission, in other words the ridiculous claims along the lines of: "I can't be a fascist because my wife is a lesbian" - doh! This has already been dealt with in some depth in the comments sections of other posts on this blog. Such sophistry may fool the odd naive neo-folk fanboy but it won't convince anyone who knows something of the historical reality of fascism.

    It is difficult to take Tibet seriously on anything, but especially his 'Christianity', since he seems perfectly able to claim to follow Jesus while remaining a member of the Crowleyite OTO. There seems to be a certain amount of role playing going on here which dovetails both with that indulged in by Nazi Satanist groups like the Order of Nine Angles and various 'chaos magicians' (a mix of non-fascists and Nazis, as well as former fascist activists like Ian Read who more recently have adopted crypto-fascist positions).

    I don't think Tibet particularly appeals to Christians, but he does appeal to a small coterie of occultists, including Satanists and Nazi Satanists (such as Boyd Rice who he has worked with) and they are going to take him calling Hitler the anti-Christ as an endorsement of Nazism.

    Tibet's statement strikes me as disingenuous. He may or may not be a fascist but if he isn't then he should come clean about his involvement with various fascist musicians, explain his relationships with them in detail, and make a clear statement of opposition to racism and fascism. Until he does this I think all anti-fascists should treat him with suspicion. As I've said, Tibet may or may not be a fascist, but he was certainly a fellow-traveller of the far-Right in the 1980s and 1990s.

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  30. My impression of most so called anti fascists is of a bunch of violent prone middle class 20-somethings acting out their RAF phantasies.

    ReplyDelete
  31. "Tibet's statement strikes me as disingenuous. He may or may not be a fascist but if he isn't then he should come clean about his involvement with various fascist musicians, explain his relationships with them in detail, and make a clear statement of opposition to racism and fascism. Until he does this I think all anti-fascists should treat him with suspicion. As I've said, Tibet may or may not be a fascist, but he was certainly a fellow-traveller of the far-Right in the 1980s and 1990s."

    Isn't that a bit silly? I would tend to assume that this site aims to win over fence riding purchasers of post-industrial cultural products who gloss over the right wing themes in said products? What leftists really purchase these albums? Everyone I've ever known who had more then two or three neo-folk CDs usually had the TYR journals, Evola books, etc. on their shelves as well.

    Maybe the occasional goth club kid, or black metal type dipping into noise & neo-folk have a few of these albums, but do you really think this stance of "We demand these people explain themselves to us in our way and on our terms" is going to win over the those that have no clear cut politics?

    IMO you guys are over estimating the influence of political ideologies on underground music culture and are not really looking at who really buys these records.

    Look at how a thread about this site went over at a power electronics message board-
    http://chondriticsound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=40806

    Notice how many people on that thread are like, I don't like the far right, but these guys are worse. These are the people who buy this music.

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  32. @ Anon

    If the people buying this music don't like the far-Right what are they doing with Evola books? What you seem to be saying is that most neo-folk fanboys are crypto-fascists.

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  33. So, they think that "anti-Fascists are like, er, basically Evangelical Christians and, er, like, the extreme left is, like, totally the same as the extreme right, dude, because, you know, extremes meet". What are you trying to say? that they are all juvenile morons? I was hoping for more than kids stuff like that, and I'm sure that Industrial has smarter followers.

    One thing that that blog is right about is that posts about other groups, like Genocide Organ, would be useful. Anyone care to write one?

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  34. @Cat: haven't you heard - Evola is a profound spiritual thinker. Yes, it's hard to believe, but there are people out there who take Evola's nasty, pseudo-philosophical idealist tripe seriously. I assume that they don't read much else. I remember a time when Industrial culture was genuinely quite literate but now it seems awash with idiocy: I laughed at that part of Peter Webb's book where he talks about how neo-Folk fans consider themselves sophisticated and intellectually elite. Obviously they don't get out as much these days.

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  35. It's Brown Book. Not "The" Brown Book and Moynihan and his Blood Axis didn't appear on the scene in 1995 - It was 1991 on a german compilation.

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  36. Herr Nebel - Thank you for your comment.

    I'm not entirely sure when Blood Axis first came to my attention, but certainly the hype about him increased in the run up to his first album in the mid 90s.

    I don't really give a shit what the correct title of the Death In June album is.

    I find it funny that as a fan of this music those are your only responses to my piece.

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  37. " What you seem to be saying is that most neo-folk fanboys are crypto-fascists."

    I am saying that. Neo-Folk is white power for nerds. But what I was trying to point out is that no one on the left buys these CDs to begin with, and that the casual fans of the material who do buy some of these albums here and there(goth club kids, black metalers, etc.) who don't have any defined political stance tend to be more offended by the lefts critique of post-industrial culture more then its racialist context.

    Remember when you cast something the villain you make it cool. To the these fence riding apolitical fans you guys come off like X-Tians complaining about music being Satanic. This essay here was the first one on this site that related someones concerns from a personal and non-preachy perspective and is most likely one of the best critiques of post-industrial culture out there.

    Who are you really trying to win over here? The left and overtly leftist scenes like punk already agree with you. So who else besides people who identify with post-industrial culture (who pretty much are all racialists and/or right leaning to varying degrees)buys these albums? Thats who you need to win over.

    On a side note, you know that in America post-industrial culture has three specialty record/book stores that caters to all this material. Genocide Organ CDs on the shelves next to Ernst Junger and signed copies of
    Moynihan's works, etc..

    Apop Record. Owned by Dustin from Eugenics Council)-
    http://www.apoprecords.com/about.html

    Germ Books & Galley. Owned by David E. Williams who in turn is the boyfriend of Jane Elizabeth of Tesco USA. Sections on right wing occultism next to fully stocked shelves of Tesco products.

    Hospital Productions. A noise & black metal store & label out of NYC that carries racist noise and NSBM.

    The degree that the far right as normalized itself is amongst these scenes is really extensive, to the point where its a given that its territory is apolitical to right leaning. The left historically speaking had never been directly involved with noise, neo-folk or black metal, but the right has been integral to the creation of these art forms.

    http://www.toqonline.com/blog/black-metal-1/
    http://www.toqonline.com/blog/black-metal-2/
    http://www.toqonline.com/blog/black-metal-3/

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  38. Is it any wonder there's so much ambiguity in these fan/webzine interviews when the interviewers skirt around politics and ask the kind of vapid "When's the new album coming out?", "Who played on the last one?", "How did you meet Ian Read?" and "Where would you like to play a gig?" style questions? Even 'Smash Hits' interviews went off on a tangent.

    Though my spidey senses detect a pattern of sexual frustration among neo-folk defenders, expressing itself mainly in terms of blow jobs. From Herr's blog interview with some guy from Der Blutharsch:

    N&MI: I realize you are a busy man right now about to go on tour so last question. Is there anything special you would like to tell your fans here in Scandinavia?

    Albin: Well, Swedish girls are hot. Swedish people beer sucks, and fuck, it is the 4rd time I come to perform in Copenhagen, and NEVER got a fucking "smorebrod"! So either this time I get a smorebrod or a good blowjob by a hot Swedish or Danish girl, or I swear, I'll NEVER come back!

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  39. @ John Eden

    "I don't really give a shit what the correct title of the Death In June album is.

    I find it funny that as a fan of this music those are your only responses to my piece"

    That's because people who are into this stuff are either racist or they don't care that others are. It's not a secret or anything. Maybe a few of the top acts try to obscure the issue to cover up for protecting record sales, but the people who came after them knew that getting involved in this area of culture would get one branded a racist and obviously they don't care.

    It's funny that these critiques are never towards the people in post-industrial culture that are racially minded, weather personally or in their creative works.

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  40. Anon: In a sense you are simply confirming the analysis which says that neo-Folk is riddled with Rightist sentiment, covered up by apoliticism and a Libertarianism that says "anything goes". In fact you go further than I would, as I think there's a substantial number of people involved in Industrial, neo-Folk, etc., who are not so stupid as to fall for the arguments of the right.

    The picture painted above of the situation in America is exactly what can happen here and elsewhere if the right are unopposed. What I don't understand is your own position. You seem to imply that it's simply not worth making a Left critique of neo-Folk because those involved are all either Rightists and Racists themselves or at least will defend the right against anti-Racist criticism. I don't accept that, not because I have done a big survey or something but because it goes against my personal experience. I've been in touch with many neo-Folk fans and musicians who are appalled at what goes on.

    Or are you saying that, because the intended audience for the argument are hostile to the Left and anti-Racists, we shouldn't bother arguing? Do you think there is a better way of opposing the Right in these scenes? What is it?

    "the people in post-industrial culture that are racially minded"

    Who are you thinking of?

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  41. @John: Well, those where the only things I objected to. As someone who has accually listned to the music you are now criticising I think you are perfectly right to have an oppinion on the matter unlike some people who simply looks at an album and claims it to be fascist. That doesn't mean I agree with you though.

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  42. Hi Strelnikov,

    I have a feeling this latest Anonymous guy is the same shit stirrer who is out gunning for Hospital Productions on other forums. He was banned by Hospital for trying to buy multiple copies of their limited releases to sell them at 4-5 times the price on Ebay and Discogs. He has a vendetta against the label and will stoop to any level to get get back at them.

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  43. Let's see-

    Brethren, Revolutionary Command, Organized Resistance, Control Resistance, Death Key, Green Army Fraction, Sektion B, Wutanes Heer, Operation Cleansweep , Gift, La Kommunidad, Halthan, Genetik Terrorists, Genocide Lolita, Iron Will, Diutesc,oneiric imperium, Coup de Grace, Legion Condor, Nothing Is True, Order Of The Werewolf, Psychologische Abwehrfront, Re.Sistance, Third Mind, Zocialist Zeitgeist, Iron Youth, Dagda Mor, Sturmführer, 88MM, Robert X Patriot, arditi, Torturecide, grey wolves, sacred youth, allersellen, zero zeta alfa,invisible war, changes, kama rupa, von thronstahl, H.E.R.R.,David E. Williams,Andrew King, quell, as all die, awen, cult of youth, the Lindbergh baby, Toroidh,folkstorm....

    ...just to name a few off the top of my head.

    I'm not saying that leftists shouldn't be critical of this material. I'm saying is realize who it is that is into this stuff. Obviously you're not going to win over the people who identify with the ideas behind this music. But you may convince the apolitical ones. Be careful not to alienate these people by making post-industrial culture seem cool because its "taboo".

    One key difference between classical racialism and all these new school Satanic minded racialists is that they are really Satanic first and a lot of the appeal to them initially of racialism is its taboo veneer. Especially sense a lot of these people are former leftist punks.

    Its like how many Satanists raised in strict X-Tian families end up having a fixation with breaking X-Tian norms, a lot of these people have former anarcho-punk baggage that they deal with by wallowing in Nazi taboo.

    IMO there are two things you should ask yourself-

    1- How do we present our concerns with post-industrial culture in way that people without specific politics aren't offended or alienated.

    2- Why do so many people in post-industrial culture have prior anarcho-punk backgrounds?

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  44. Oh yea I forgot Necrofascist/Magister James Sass-

    http://cosmodromium.blogspot.com/
    http://www.youtube.com/user/DevilsAvenger

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  45. Do you know about the Iron Youth Reader? I mention this again to show how entrenched this area of culture is.

    http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/iron-youth-reader/3316980
    This is the first annual installment of “Studies Beyond Good and Evil”-- the Iron Youth Reader. These largely out-of-print works have been selected as a guide to assist the explorer of the taboo and left-hand paths. Neglected, infamous and infernal texts from philosophy, sociology, history and psychology are compiled, with blank pages for notes after each selection. Starting this collection is Robert Eisler’s exploration of sadism, masochism and lycanthropy; Man Into Wolf. Appearing next in the volume is a short anti-religious tract from Marquis deSade- A Dialogue Between a Priest and a Dying Man followed by Oswald Spengler’s Man and Technics. Savitri Devi’s Rocks of the Sun is an excerpt from her book Pilgrimage. LeBon’s The Psychology of the Crowd, a landmark work giving insight into what happens when an individual finds himself one of many. The final contribution to the Reader is Sir Francis Galton’s Essays In Eugenics.

    http://www.ironyouthreader.com/2008/10/iron-youth-reader-v1-at-germ-books/

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  46. It is easy to get carried away with the connections people have and what they might be thinking without any particular evidence. If we are to take some of the assertions of this blog seriously you suggest that people accused of collaboration, sympathy with or plain obscuring of their real beliefs on this site should explain their past and present actions/beliefs and justify their position. You also find it hard to understand how people from different extreme political positions can move around together in the same scene. If people are to explain all their actions then shouldn't Stewart Home explain why in 1995 he collaborated with Robert Forbes to give him information for a chapter (on Crisis) in his Death In June book "Misery and Purity" and also why in 1996 he interviewed David Tibet for Tony Wakefords "ON" magazine (where by the way Tibet makes it clear that Hitler is Kalki is about Hitler as AntiChrist and his position is one of someone interested in religion who hates Hitlers and Nazi Germany's works and ideas). In 1984/5 roughly it was known that Wakeford was in the National Front but Home chose to remain friendly with the DIJ group until the mid 90s - even calling one of his books "Come before Christ and Murder Love" (title of a DIJ song).

    It is also interesting that Anton Shekhovtsov is "friends" with Troy Southgate on his facebook site. So is this 'guilt by association' probably not, but Home has never publicly stated why he remained friends with the DIJ scene until the mid 1990s and why he mentions them in his books until his more recent attacks on them - some of which may be justified?

    I am no sympathiser with the crypto-fascist element in Neo Folk but I have moved in those circles and know of some people who followed the path of literature and reference points and did end up in some form of far right politics. I also know some that have nothing to do with the politics and enjoy the music. But I am not particularly interested in it now but feel that if you question some people you should also question those who also have 'links' to these people and get them to explain themselves.

    Ciao Dead Prez

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  47. The really significant mid-90s English publication/zine was called 'Harsh Reality', of which only two issues emerged. I know it sold well, although it was withdrawn from some outlets. That would have been a dangerous magazine if it had continued, because those guys were hard core intellects and far more subversive than the pantywaists at Esoterra. It was advanced elitist philosophy, but I heard a rumour that Combat 18 had been giving it out on football terraces of all places.

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  48. Gnostic Neville.14 Nov 2010, 22:42:00

    C'mon John — you'd only buy Ohm Clock magazine and DIJ records if you were an occult Nazi and white supremacist — there's no other reason to get them, fuckwit! Face it, you're JUST like Stewart Home — an ex-fascist who wants to get off the Nazi bandwagon because it's not cool anymore and has become something of an embarrassment in view of your current ambitions. Home sold Tibet's old racialist pamphlets to Housmans bookshop. You and this website were made for each other — it's just a way for elitist fanboys who wish to preserve their hateful attitudes, but now you do it by trying to out-theorize your former peers. You pathetic bunch of cunts! Get a life!

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  49. Thanks for dropping by and completely misunderstandng both my article and this whole site Neville.

    I've not been on the neofolk bandwagon for about 15 years and, as I say above, I've never been a fascist.

    Indeed the only proof you have of my involvement (which extends to buying some crap records and fanzines in my twenties) are my own words, above.

    Clearly you have some argument with Stewart Home, I don't know what that is and I don't really care.

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  50. @Dead Prez: obviously I can't answer for Stewart Home generally. I did, however, recently read the interview he did with Tibet for 'ON' magazine and I find it difficult to see how it could be seen as anything other than satire. My favourite bit was where Home compared Tibet's music to The Port Dukes and argued that it was funny novelty music. Actually I thought the sarcasm and satire was a bit too obvious and I was surprised he got away with it: maybe it's just that the people in this scene don't recognise satire when they see it? Anyway, I'd hardly treat it as evidence that Home had any kind of sympathy with Tibet.

    It's fair enough that people should be prepared to explain their own position and history if there is any doubt about it, but Home has already discussed this history at some length on his site, and anyway has made his position today absolutely clear. The idea that Home was at any point sympathetic to the Right-wing in neo-Folk or anywhere else just doesn't make sense: if he had been then he would have kept his mouth shut about the whole subject in order not to be compromised. Instead he has confronted this history at length.

    Home sold Tibet's old racialist pamphlets to Housmans bookshop"

    As I've pointed out before, the fact that Home owned Nazi &/or 'Racialist' materials is hardly surprising for a person investigating and writing about Fascism. I own many such books and pamphlets myself. It doesn't make me a Nazi sympathiser. It would be far more odd if any of us wrote about Fascism without first studying it.

    I asked Anton Shekhovtsov some time ago why he has Troy Southgate as a friend on Facebook and he says it was because he was in the process of interviewing Southgate and that's how he had contacted him. Personally I think it's a mistake. What it doesn't mean, though, is that Shekhovtsov is in any way politically compromised. His stance against the right has been made more than clear in his various articles.

    Neither Home nor Shekhovtsov have anything to answer for in that regard.

    The neo-Folk fanboys see all criticism as moralism, but the criticism on this blog is clearly political and not moralistic. The fanboys have a typically petit-bourgeois obsession with moralism (they are obsessively against it), and it would be a mistake to become as obsessed as they are. Personally I couldn't care less if someone has a Fascist history or background as long as they have broken with it completely both ideologically and in practice (and are not, like Wakeford, just trying to hide it while carrying on promoting more or less the same ideas in another form).

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  51. @BB Wolfe

    Your attempts to come on here and hype up "Harsh Reality" are laughable. Nobody had heard of that rag outside of chaos magick circles at the time, let alone since.

    All I can remember about it was an absurd article on eugenics and the usual run of the mill occult nazi nonsense.

    It was indeed withdrawn from Compendium Books when they realised it was a nazi publication. This lead to the amusing spectacle of one of its "ubermensch" editors crying like a baby about being censored.

    Thanks for reminding me of it, the ridiculous mag and its po-faced contributors provided a some of us with a great deal of amusement at the time! :-)

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  52. Thanks for the info regarding Satanist mag Harsh Reality. Not for what you say about it, which is neither here nor there, or your claims not to recall it (you still seem pretty excited by it 15 years later). You've given me the last bit of proof in figuring out who is involved in composing this website. Obviously, it wasn't too hard to determine who would spend so much of their time putting together a voluminous website dedicated to feuds no-one in their right mind would care about. But a word of caution with your enterprise — if you insist of making life awkward and possibly dangerous for people just minding their own business, you cannot be surprised if they revenge themselves on you. Your unread Marx and Hegel paperbacks will not provide a sufficient defence.

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  53. Oh, fer fecks sake, all of these 'arguments' are so absurd ! David Tibet is just not, repeat not, going to cause kids to turn into jackboot wearing zombies, and encourage fascism ! Please ! Troy Southgate and Wakeford probably have about ten fans, none of whom do anything much more scary than buying Ernst Junger books and reading Hilaire Belloc.

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  54. Gnostic Neville said: "Home sold Tibet's old racialist pamphlets to Housmans bookshop."

    If Tibet/Bunting wrote racialist pamphlets could Neville tell us the titles, the publisher(s) and the name(s) Tibet used on them? This would help people organise against him and his Current 93 concerts.

    Likewise if Housmans were selling racist garbage by Tibet is Neville willing to picket and protest with me and others against those who must have known about this? If the allegation is true our targets would range from those they sell a lot of material by like Home, down to the small fry such as Michel Prigent whose micro-publications are stocked by Housmans but don't really sell.

    It seems surprising that as The Peace News bookshop Housmans would flog racist garbage by Tibet, but if it is true and Neville has proof then we should also picket and demonstrate against Housmans & its owner Peace News.

    Neville if you can substantiate these allegations I will start & participate in a very active campaign against all those you & I've mentioned and others too!

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  55. @Dead Prez:
    >> It is also interesting that Anton Shekhovtsov
    >> is "friends" with Troy Southgate on his
    >> facebook site.

    I use my Facebook page for different purposes. Sometimes, I'm guided by the phrase "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer". I would have never been able to write my papers, for example, on Aleksandr Dugin and his organisations, if I had not known some of his adherents personally.

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  56. @Anonymous 15 Nov 2010 14:42:00

    Sorry to disappoint you, Poirot, but I am merely a humble commenter here. Alas I'm not the "composer" of the luscious symphony which I think we can all agree this website is.

    Still, I'm not surprised that you've chosen to respond to the comments here with threats. You're obviously wound up, but can't argue against what is being said here.

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  57. Gnostic Neville.18 Nov 2010, 00:03:00

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  58. Gnostic Neville18 Nov 2010, 11:07:00

    Tibet did NOT write racialist pamphlets. He merely owned them (the ones I refer to were a series published by the Racial Preservation Society). He thought enough of them to inscribe his name in them ("David M Bunting")... [homophobic rant deleted - Ed]

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  59. As a number of people have decided to use the issue of his sale of various fascist pamphlets as a smokescreen, I contacted Stewart via his website and asked him if he would address the issue. He sent the following reply:

    "I didn't sell anything to Housmans of the type described in some of the comments on your blog (I have sold Housmans a lot of new copies of my own books over the years). In 1995 I sold most of my book collection - mainly Leftist/Marxist and literary stuff (much of the literary stuff had been picked up to resell anyway and consisted of signed first editions that I'd acquired cheaply). The political and historical books had been used for researching various things I'd written and I no longer needed them. The books and other publications went to various dealers depending on where I was going to get the best price. Some stuff had to be given away - such as dozens of British Solidarity (Paul Cardan/Cornelius Castoriadis influenced) pamphlets on various topics because no one would buy them at the time. The far-Right stuff I'd collected as research material - mainly for the trilogy of novels Defiant Pose, Red London and Blow Job, but also for some non-fiction essays I was writing - was a bit of a problem because I didn't want it being bought by people sympathetic to fascism or racism. I therefore agreed to let two dealers who worked together take it because they said they'd sell the entire collection to an American university they dealt with. The agreement I made with them was that the money was to be split between us after sale, AND that they would absolutely NOT break up the collection (there were some very rare 1930s publications which a lot of university archives would have paid a very high price for, alongside stuff that was a much easier to find).

    The dealers came to my flat and took the material away in their car. For reasons best known to themselves (although I suspect it was that they didn't understand the rarity of some of the material I'd given them, nor my desire that that none of it should end up bolstering reactionary beliefs), the dealers broke the agreement, flogged the best material at a stupidly low price to their American university (without checking if with me If I was happy with the price before doing so, and breaking our agreement on that score too) and then dumped the rest of the books in secondhand outlets in London. I do not recall having any Racial Preservation Society pamphlets with David Tibet/Bunting's name in them. If someone saw pamphlets fitting this description in Housmans (which I doubt because it sells new leftist books), then I suspect the publications either had not passed through my hands (and therefore came from elsewhere) or else someone had added the name after the book dealers in question took them from me (I would think the former is more likely although I obviously can't rule out the latter having not seen the publications in question with Tibet's name in them). As for the person commenting on your blog who claims to have seen me selling far-Right research material to Housmans, this is an outright lie because I have never sold material fitting this description to that shop, and all the material I had of that description was collected from my flat in one visit as a complete collection. So as I say, if any of that material did end up in Housmans (which I very much doubt, although some of it did end up in London used bookshops despite my trying to avoid this happening), it was nothing to do with me and went completely against my wishes and the agreement I'd made with the book dealers in question."

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  60. Gnostic Neville.18 Nov 2010, 19:56:00

    Home sold the material to those who ran the Porcupine bookshop, who then put volumes and pamphlets on the shelves and kept a cardbox box of hardcore white supremacist newspapers and pamphlets behind the scenes and generously showed them to me when I asked for more of Home's political porno, which Stewie no doubt read voraciously while conducting his do his "satirical" (or whatever, Stewart!) interview with Tibet and his "sarcastic" (or whatever, Stewart!) hero-worshipping introduction to "genius" Wakeford's lyric book. Porcupine had a fascist section for years afterwards, using the more "academic" of this material. And as he is such a haunter of Housmans, he would surely know this. As Stewart is obviously the most egregious historical revisionist of them all, maybe you, Strelnikov, should do an expose of him? Why not, luv?
    As for Home sniffling over "lies", surely anyone who can write total fantasy like, "Clearly Tony Wakeford has not broken with Nazism. Like Troy Southgate he is still a fascist activist waging a far-Right 'war of position' in a cultural arena - albeit in Wakeford's case under the guiding hand of Richard Lawson" should be bloody well ashamed of his own crawling hypocrisy.

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  61. Increasingly, I am beginning to wonder about your blog, and the people who have ever bothered with these marginal 'cultural figures' and twits in army gear, like SPK etc.

    You buy all these records , which flirt so clearly and obviously with fascist totalitarian imagery -- and surprise surprise, it turns out some of the bands *really do* have some very nasty friends, who....( cough ) err...ummm....really ARE fascists...

    Well, that was a surprise, no sh_t Sherlock...

    "oh, I mean, I bought all the records with Stormtroopers on the cover, and now I am really upset to find that they MEANT it after all...I mean, there was me wearing a death's head Nazi badge and Waffen SS look-a-like gear, and honest Guv, I mean, I didn't know some of them were for real...Damn,I mean, they did say in interviews it was all some post modern joke to provoke people....What rotten liars they were ! I was deceived! now I will have to write a blog to protect the youths minds from such an evil..."

    Are you and your blog page for real?

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  62. @Thinking - so your argument is that everyone who used Fascist symbolism is a Fascist (which is not true, and goes much further than anything said by anyone on this blog). On the other hand, you argue elsewhere that we shouldn't bother with them. It's very confusing.

    @Gnostic Neville: I note with interest that you have changed your story, and that it is now a different bookshop (Porcupine) that Home sold his pamphlets, etc., to. Not that it matters - as I've explained before, it's perfectly natural that someone writing about Fascism should first research it. Perhaps it is the idea of doing research before making accusations that is so hard for you to digest?

    Also, though you continue to insinuate that Home was somehow sympathetic to Fascism you patently can't provide a single shred of evidence to support the idea, otherwise you would have done so by now. That is why I won't be taking up your suggestion that I should write an exposé of Home.

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  63. It's not confusing at all -- its so bloody obvious that if you mention the silly double game these marginal bands play to anyone 'outside the scene' they'd laugh.

    It's just not serious -- you take all the ephemera and stupid record sleeves and dumb gear these artists wear, and the dumb ideas they play with, and you discuss it to anyone outside the 'we are in the know'scene -- they'd look at you as if you were a nutcase with some obsessive or narcissists disorder.

    Look, nasty as their affiliations may be -- BANA , and these other marginal political groups and bands, probably couldn't fill a pub basement on a Friday night so low are their attendance figures.

    Fascist ideas are a very real threat now, there is no doubt about that. I don't argue with you on that point -- just don't expect these silly bands and narcissistic 'cultural figures' to be at the centre of any fascist uprising any time soon.

    You are looking in the wrong places for serious fascism.

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  64. Gnostic Neville.20 Nov 2010, 02:16:00

    Strelnikov — Don't get disingenuous, old chap. Porcupine is (or rather was) the basement bookshop of Housmans, selling used books, as you well know. Despite his flimsy denials, Home's history and his record of friendships is proof enough of his sympathies with occult Nazism, before his later ambitions and personal embarrassment necessitated his U-turn. But you are not motivated to expose Home, as this whole site is merely a vendetta. Anyone with any sense has seen seen right though your gossamer-thin argument about your "research" of fascism. I'd respect this site if it were a ringing denunciation of what is really offensive about these people: their guilt in producing a whole catalogue of tone-deaf, badly-played old crap. That said, there was a large market for it — there's no accounting for taste, is there?

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  65. "Porcupine is (or rather was) the basement bookshop of Housmans, selling used books, as you well know"

    Indeed it was, but it was run completely separately and with a different agenda. You seemed to treat it as significant that it was precisely Housmans that took the books, so the difference is significant to your argument. But even if it were Housmans that wouldn't alter my main point, which is that it is not at all surprising that Home studied Fascism or that he should later sell the relevant books and pamphlets. I'm sure we've all done that kind of thing several times over (bought and collected books to pursue an interest, then later got rid of them). I have no axe to grind in this particular argument, it's just that I find Home's account of events completely convincing, while his opponents seem unable or unwilling to address the real questions about their beliefs and ideas.

    As for your criticism of the music, I couldn't agree more. I am not a scene 'insider' or a fan. That would perhaps explain why the site has had such a focus on certain people - there's are the best known and best documented cases of people with ideas borrowed from the radical Right working in this culture (however you think of it). I'm hoping it's possible to write about others in future.

    The purpose of this blog is to document what's known about the radical right's interventions in culture, and provide materials for understanding it. I'm sure there is much to be said about people other than those I'll just call 'the usual suspects'.

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  66. Gnostic Neville.20 Nov 2010, 19:38:00

    Well, not wishing to sound like a scratched Death In June record, I will say once more that your claim to document "the radical right's interventions in culture" has chosen, for some odd reason, to focus on a busted flush, a tiny little subculture, which had its time in the spotlight 20 years ago, of which the main figures that you're concerned with have been politically inert for over a decade, not to say - in poor Tony Wakeford's case - cringingly apologetic. I hope you're not indulging in that Freudian habit of ignoring the real problem because it's too big to attack, instead diverting your energy into swatting entirely harmless flies.

    As for Stewart Home, the truth for those not "in the know" is summarised here:
    http://www.metamute.org/en/the_stewart_home_syndrome_sol_invictus_intellectual_decompostion_and_other_mindless_projective_tantrums

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  67. OK, I'm usually told I'm left of Pol Pot and I have been involved in direct anti-racism action BUT....

    ...what is the actual point of this blog?

    Yeah, we need to drive racism out of music, of course, name and shame those who ARE practising it.

    However, what is the point naming & shaming those who WERE involved?

    As far as I can tell, these neo-folk musicians who keep getting repeatedly named on here were all once involved in far-right politics and have since seen the error of their ways and moved on but are, quite rightfully, ashamed of this past and unwilling to speak out about it and explain it.

    So, is this blog saying:

    1.The repeatedly named musicians are all still horrible, racist Nazis and a threat to society.

    or

    2.The repeatedly named musicians used to be Nazis and we will never forgive them, never let them forget and always judge them by what they did wrong 20 years ago.

    I will always confront with maximum anger those who pedal hatred and prejudice. However, people who have walked away from that path are a good thing - because they prove we are right and that they have come round to our point of view.

    So, what is this? Have you got some real proof that these guys are still real shits & a menace to society? Or are you just shit-stirring up old sins? Because if it's the later, there's way too many sinners in the present that we have to be worried about.

    I don't give a shit if some old fucker who plays to audiences of 30 people used to be racist 20 years ago.

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  68. @Puzzled: who do you see as 'sinners in the present'? If you think the blog targets the wrong people, feel free to write something about whatever you see as the real problem.

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  69. @Strelnikov: I'll be honest, I do not know who the present problems are. Obviously, Skrewdriver ran into technical problems when a motorway objected to their music. I don't know who has taken their place.

    That said, I am painfully ignorant of the current goth/industrial scene.

    I'm pretty sure there are some Nazis in the black metal scene but short of hearing a couple of Burzum albums and reading about church burning and murdering, I am pretty ignorant of that scene.

    I would really like to read articles about who is the problem now because I don't know.

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  70. Puzzled sadi: "As far as I can tell, these neo-folk musicians who keep getting repeatedly named on here were all once involved in far-right politics and have since seen the error of their ways and moved on but are, quite rightfully, ashamed of this past and unwilling to speak out about it and explain it."

    This misses the point that much of what this blog documents is the fact that these individuals haven't ended their involvement with far-Right politics. They say they have and yet continue to obsessively reference fascist ideology, history and "heroes". They are still following the strategy of a far-Right 'war of cultural position' that some of them were taught as official National Front cadre in the 1980s. They want to lose the fascist label, which is politically inconvenient for them, while continuing to pursue the aims of fascist ideology. This has been the strategy of the fascist 'new right' for more than forty years, the NF cadre learnt it mostly from Italian fascist terrorists and mass murderers, but French 'intellectual' fascists have also played a big role in this.

    I'm not responsible for this blog and maybe the person or people who are can clarify further, but I can see no reason for it covering all the territory it does if some of the individuals you are alluding to had actually broken with fascism rather than for reasons of convenience merely pretended to do so. Also please bear in mind that some of those covered - such as John Cato and Gary Smith both of the Nazi would-be terror group Combat 18, and remember also that the latter had musical involvements with the likes of Tony Wakeford and Ian Read - do not even claim to have broken with fascism and continue to openly proclaim racist and Nazi views. Whereas Smith's one-time musical partners now use lightly coded imagery to get their fascist message across to an admittedly small number of fanboys.

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  71. @Captain Black: That's the gist of it. Some of the critics here attach mystical properties to pieces of card, and believe you can only be a Fascist if you own a membership card for a recognised Fascist party. It doesn't matter what else you do, as long as you don't own that piece of card you have nothing to do with fascism. This has the benefit that it doesn't require that anyone do any critical thinking; all we need is evidence about who is carrying what cards.

    Obviously the concept of 'Fascist ideology' or 'Fascist Art' is too difficult for some people to grasp. Either that or they just want to provide cover for those who've ditched their membership cards but continue to pursue the strategy of normalising anti-democratic, racist and 'Euro-centric' ideas, as developed by the New Right and other Fascists, as Captain Black notes.

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  72. What do people make of this statement: - http://www.deathinjune.org/modules/mediawiki/index.php/Article:Statement

    lane.

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  73. I posted a comment, but I think it didn't go through. Alright, making it short and to the point. I've been through Neo-Folk, I survived it ( miraculasly ). Yes, of course they're bunch of Nazis. And no music is not all that good. Current 93 is questionable. If he isn't a Nazi, he is some other dark spirit. And yes, that music brings you down.

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  74. On David Tibet again:

    Jean said:
    "
    Tibet's statement strikes me as disingenuous. He may or may not be a fascist but if he isn't then he should come clean about his involvement with various fascist musicians, explain his relationships with them in detail, and make a clear statement of opposition to racism and fascism. Until he does this I think all anti-fascists should treat him with suspicion. As I've said, Tibet may or may not be a fascist, but he was certainly a fellow-traveller of the far-Right in the 1980s and 1990s. "

    I'd like to agree with this in theory, but it makes me wonder at what point the logic here becomes guilt by association...

    If we think that Tibet should do the above, why don't we expect it of people who have worked with Tibet..since Tibet has the connections, does Nick Cave now have these connections by extension?

    I realize that Cave has done far less with Tibet than Tibet has with Douglas Pearce (as an example), but the point stands I think.

    At what point does someone become 'suspicious', I mean there are all kinds of folks who have worked with these people that don't seem to share the Fascist sympathies, and all kinds that do.

    I listened to all this stuff at one time, I stopped listening mostly because I realized alot of it was terrible music, only to look into the politics of these guys years later. If someone like me could go years without really paying attention to the politics of it, I don't find it out of the question that some of the people involved in making might have also overlooked that stuff.

    We aren't talking about a scene that is steeped in sharp political thought or awareness.

    Anonymous Lurker #213

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  75. Extremist and Proud of It20 Apr 2011, 13:52:00

    Anon Lurker#213 is right in many ways - and this is the complexity of the situation - and i presume one of the uses of debate like this - one aspect of the problem is the fact that the information is becoming more and more readily available - and by information, I mean the #truth# - if nothing else - I would hope that everyone in the #scene# take a long, hard look at their neighbour and do their best to ascertain exactly what is truth and lies - and I ascribe to this site being a seeker of truth - as opposed to the lies of those it attacks - there must be no bystanders - guilt should be PROPERLY apportioned - and if I am coming over a bit extreme and old-testament in this respect, then so be it. There are too many mutually-held guilty secrets...a conspiracy culture of either silence or amorality has long existed. I am all for ´NO PLATFORM FOR NAZIS' - and that includes those who build the platform, unwittingly or not. All concerned should be named, for starters - even if this smacks of "guilty until proved innocent" - or Mcarthyism.

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  76. Lurker 213 says "We aren't talking about a scene that is steeped in sharp political thought or awareness" but DIJ's early records, at least, were explicit Strasserite manifestos. If someone sings about "our once proud brownshirt now stained by engineers of blood, faith and race", it doesn't take a lot of political insight to see where they are coming from. Ditto songs about WWII as a "war between brothers" ('Fields'), the futility of the Drang nach Osten ('We Drive East')- an explicitly National Bolshevik theme - or the overt lyrics of 'Sons of Europe', 'Death of the West' etc. They might have considered themselves to be in the tradition of 'left wing', anti-Hitler fascists but their ideology could not be clearer.Bear in mind that Pearce and Wakeford had been hardcore Trotskyists - Pearce was formerly a long-term International Marxist Group cadre - so the Strasserite narrative of 'the revolution betrayed' fitted seamlessly with their previous world view, albeit at the opposite end of the political spectrum. That said, I'm not sure that any of DIJ's output depicts the Holocaust as anything other than a moral abyss and it would be unfair to describe Pearce/DIJ crudely as 'Nazi'. He remains, however, very much on the New Right as one can see from his charming white settler attitudes to native Australians in a recent interview posted on his website: www.deathinjune.org/modules/mediawiki/index.php?title=Interview:2010-SSex&curid=2498

    Martin

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  77. just a footnote - in the light of the "Tibet cites father was in the war therefore cannot be etc etc."
    it is interesting to look at the death in june archive site and see that Douglas 'blames' Tibet for some of what he presumably believes others consider DIJs more dubious lyrics - interesting also to think that it was Douglas group and if Douglas had a problem with any lyrics on his own albums he wouldn't have included them....

    for the record - I personally think it is ok to call Douglas anything unpleasant - nazi, whatever - however maybe imprecise - nothing is too crude or unsuited to that piece of shit - and I'm not sure that if in the past seeking out surviving german nazis from the second world war to have sex with does qualify one as a nazi or not - I guess as they are a thankfully dying breed that will become more and more just a thing of conjecture.

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  78. douglas on aborigines....from above....a bit like the comment he is supposed to say onstage in Israel - nice to know he is in no way racially prejudiced though
    "My main memory of that was how many Aboriginal sites were nearby - all distinguished by wrecked cars, burning tyres and the general look a slum encampments. Ah, the noble savage!"

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  79. Ned Kellys Screaming Ghost in Absentia1 May 2011, 23:46:00

    How did the asshole get to emigrate to Australia anyway? I thought they had strict entry requirements (OK, they may have that in common with Doug if his comments about uncircumcised dicks are anything to go by) - what was the criteria - we haven't got enough whining, egotistic Faux / Real Nazis who drink champagne in empty swimming pools with their Austrian and American fascist friends - so lets take this specimen ?
    Or did they mistakenly wake up one morning having forgotten that they have for a very long time ceased to be a dumping ground for Britiains prison system and feel that he must be some kind of felon and that they were obliged to care of him for ever more?
    I say sorry, Australia - We, the citizens of England, Ireland Scotland and Wales don't want him back . You're stuck with that particular whinging Pommie Nazi forever - Bad Luck! Tough Tittie! as you may say, but there it is.

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  80. FWIIW, Tony Wakeford married a nice Jewish girl, Renée Rosen. I think they have kids.

    Spot the Nazi is pretty weak sauce, really. I can't think of a political grouping with less influence in modern Western Civilization than the far right, other than, perhaps, the flat earth society, which lacks the legions of hysterical ninnies running them to earth that anyone to the right of Gordon Brown has.

    A lot of Tibet's early stuff was influenced by Savitri Devi, who was a Greek convert to Hinduism who believed Hitler was Kalki. It's completely bonkers shit, much like Julius Evola. While she was undoubtedly a sort of neo nazi, as Evola was a sort of post-fascist neo-fascist, anyone seriously interested in their ideologies can, at worst, be considered a harmless eccentric. I mean, their ideas are so laughably insane, I don't see how anyone could see an adherent to them as a threat. It's like being afraid of people who believe in UFO's.

    I can't argue with the author's distaste for nitwits like Rahowa and James Mason, personally, and I never understood why someone interested in Death in June and Boyd Rice was supposed to find them remotely interesting. Mason is a fruitcake Manson worshipper and apparently a child molestor, and while I don't mind street punk/oi music, Rahowa is pathetic. I'm pretty sure the hidden network there is they were all in a certain mutual assistance club: the Church of Satan.

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  81. @ Spiney Norman.

    Wakeford and his wife don't have kids. The fact that she's Jewish means nothing.

    "It's like being afraid of people who believe in UFO's." No one is afraid of these people, just pissed off with their politics. Don't make the mistake of writing off anyone who is sowing the seeds of their fascist agenda in the fertile soil of the neofolk/industrial music scene. They make their mark which is why there are quite a lot of morons who rush to this site to defend them.
    Wake up!

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  82. Um, the fact that he's married a Jewess means nothing? I think it means something, and most Jews would also. It certainly means he doesn't hate Jews in any meaningful sense of the word, which for me and a lot of other people is a sort of natural dividing line between merely right wing people and potentially violent loons.
    I guess I don't really care if you're "pissed off with their politics." That's your business, but you're certainly not going to make me pissed off with their politics unless they're a political threat to someone, rather than merely offensive. The flat earthers or animal rights types (who are approximately 1000 times more dangerous than far right nitwits) would make more interesting enemies.

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  83. @Spiney Norman: We've discussed this several times on the blog before - have a search. But, in short, no - it doesn't prove anything interesting. Fascists have been known to have Jewish wives and mistresses (Mussolini, for example), and it doesn't help if your best man is a notorious fascist either. Try not to be so naive.

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  84. There is nothing of any substance in your article to convict any band or fan of being a "fascist", whatever that means, particularly as regards Death In June.
    If the fans you knew didn't see the irony and sillyness in Boyd Rice's rants regarding "might is right" and Social Darwinism (that the mighty scum rise to the top after all - not as Conan the barbarian, but as corporate CEOs), then either you're an idiot yourself or seek company you can feel superior to.
    I've known more racists listening to 1970's rock than I have listening to industrial, and I don't go out of my way to spend more time with them than is necessary.

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  85. Just Another Comment13 Jun 2011, 05:00:00

    Regarding the above post...

    Irony and silliness? Rice has made clear for the past decade or more that he believes in this 'might is right' superstition of his. He has stated it in numerous interviews and manages to work it in to his material over, and over, and over, and over. He does it with little to no sense of irony.

    If there IS any kind of irony and silliness here, then either he has been lying the entire time, or the joke is falling very, very flat.

    The only real silly aspect to all this is that anyone could believe in something so utterly nonsensical as the gibberish in question.

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  86. Just Another Comment13 Jun 2011, 05:03:00

    As for Wakeford's Jewish wife...

    As has been pointed out, he can still be a fascist and be married to a Jewish individual. Hell, he can even be an anti-semite.

    But what are we to make of it? The answer seems trivially clear. Let's just apply Occams Razor and go for the simplest explanation, and that explanation is this: Tony Wakeford is just an idiot.

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  87. Those tapes you refer to being circulated in the underground scene of Bob larsons interview with Boyd Rice has now actually been poeted on you tube. Someone has put the interview up in 5 10 minute segments. Listen to it, it is fasci(st)nating. Nice artical by the way. I have delved to deeply into zen buddhism, chinese taoism, Jiddu Krishnamurti, evolutionary psychology and absurdism/nihilism to be influenced by the ramblings of egocentric occultists and right wing elitist idiots of the post-industrial music scene. But much of it is Jolly good music.

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  88. I've just been reading through these comments. The guy 'pseudonym' made a good point. I'm working class from a northern town, i grew up in the 80's under thatcher draining us of our resources. NF, BNP and the like have always targeted the poorest of the white working class because they are easy targets. These people are so wound up, alienated and disollusioned with the mainstream political parties that they become so easy to prey upon by the parasites of the extreme right. This is a fact. I think strelnikov was a little too critical of pseudonym in his response to his comment. Whether pseudonym is right or left wing. He made a good point.

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  89. Of course, it's always the problem of collective ideology plague - fascism/nazism (just as communism) generate massive hysteria. It's hard to stay in the middle, untouched/unaffected and not being forced to wage both sides of the coin, to stay as individual as possible. So I guess, we're all indoctrinated by this - endless debating, lost in circles made by institutional rhetoric (be it politics, religion - or music, amongst other things).

    Music in general makes people very easy targets - for all the good or bad reasons... because, as this excellent article provokes thought, we are constantly trapped in a world of twisted little intrigues. Might avoid one but get caught up in another, just around the corner. Reading this study on Neofolk, I recognise myself in some parts - I was a DIJ fan (part of me still respects some of their work) and really enjoyed their music. I also prefer considering myself a musical "fascist" so to speak, both as a listener and occasional noise maker. But of couse, this declaration is absolutely of NO relation to political atrocity of fascism. It's my individual attempt to express a strict personal taste, regardless of genre or cultural diversity.

    The arrogance of being young and arty, escaping the dullness of everyday mould helps forming an opinion. In case of Neofolk, I believe I simply grew up and realised this is rather childish music made by mature people for the immature to discover and (mis)interpret for their own ends. I never really liked neither the term "Apocalyptic Folk" nor "Neofolk" - while DIJ inevitably helped providing ideal space for such a genre to develop, their music is far too eclectic for its own sake; personally I still prefer their raw early material as thought provoking ("Black Radio" remains one of my favourite early pieces by the group, or that weird "Corn Years" re-recorded version of "Fields of Rape"). The author of the above article pointed out 'Brown Book' being his personal turning point in discovering the work of DIJ. I must say, the song "The Fog of the World" still sends shivers down the spine, for all the horror beauty of it. :)

    I believe Douglas P. despite all his personal/professional/musical ideology, is intelligent enough to understand that his ambiguous mindfuck aesthetics might cause inevitable drawbacks. Once I started seeing/hearing DIJ more maturely, I realised not necessarily the stupidity of their (or their genre mates') musical selves but the (visual if not auditive) tastelessness of it all.

    In the end, however, I still dearly remember these dilemmas of who they were/are for or against.

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  90. It seems like you know your stuff, but you can't fault people for listening to this type of music it’s a far cry from being an active fascist neo-Nazi. I myself listen to these bands because I feel connected with the singers and subject matter. However it's more of a nostalgia feeling than a neo-Nazi ideal. Sure some bands might be active members of neo-Nazi parties or who knows even extremist Muslims, they don't speak for the whole genre or why it was created. The genre brings back an era and feeling from the past the same as listening to the big bands of the 50s or classical music from 1700s does which I listen to as well. It's not for everyone and sure in the wrong hands it can be turned around, but so can anything really. As a German Jew I have an even bigger bone to pick with neo-Nazi groups however if someone chooses to see the negative in things that’s what they will get.

    DIJ has since clarified his stance on things (IMO) on the album Heilige! the song My Little Black Angel he clearly says "Your Father your Fuehrer protects you and locks you safe from all harm" This is obviously a tongue in cheek reference to the SS and how Hitler feels about them. But once again is he promoting it or just saying "Murder made History?" With songs on the Brown Book like "Touch Defiles" having a background chorus of people being shot and murdered I don't know how you didn't identify with and understand what you were getting into. I have a feeling you subconsciously did and it helped you get past some dark things in your life at the time and now you resent everything to do with the Genre because your past is too hard to relive. Douglas is clearly a Sturmabteilung (SA) sympathizer and musical historian of the German Reich take what you want from his music. "We hear that song now when the SS and the SA march away"

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  91. Fascism is insidious in the Neo-Folk scene. I think that a lot of these artists play on the romance of simpler times, the occult, folklore, and traditions. These themes can be appealing, and, if you are like me and enjoy bleak, solemn soundscapes, as well as dark, and/or romantic imagery, then you can get hooked into the music and its subculture. However, a person can also be swept up by some of the scene's more nefarious ideologies. Many of these artists and many more involved in the scene spiral around such romantic, evocative themes until they wind up quoting Evola and the fans nod their heads in assent. It's as though they haven't realized that they've been given a rather gradual introduction to Fascism. Inevitably, there comes the not so subtle rhetoric of loving your heritage and taking pride in your heritage, which then descends into discussion of racial/cultural "purity." However, this is sometimes skirted around or spoken of in coded ways. Open your eyes, obscure music fans, and take a good look at what's on offer. You might notice that you are surrounded by a number of crypto-fascists. Some of these people are neo-Nazis and aren't even really hiding it. Some of them aren't exactly knuckle-draggers, either. Many are articulate, subtle, and convincing characters.

    Yet, with all of this, I feel conflicted. Music is never without some kind of ideology. Yet, art transcends ideologies, at the same time as it promotes them. I have enjoyed listening to DIJ (however, their ambiguity disturbs me). I have enjoyed other, less notorious Neo-Folk artists. However, I don't want my money and my presence at their shows to go toward furthering harmful ideologies. So, am I a hypocrite or am I a lover of art? I am certainly anti-fascist, but I am also anti-censorship.

    To above Anonymous--I am also Jewish, so my feeling of conflict is great. I understand what you are talking about when you mention the feeling of nostalgia that is evoked by the genre. And I am not attacking you, nor am I saying that nostalgia, itself, is dangerous. However, that feeling of nostalgia often leads a winding path to fascist traditionalism, which can, in turn, get dark pretty quickly. Not all Neo-Folk artists are fascists, of course. I wish that more would speak out against the Fascism that seeps into the scene and poisons what is beautiful. I know that you say that if one "chooses to see the negative in things that’s what they will get," but I just beg us all to not close our eyes to seeing it, either. That is dangerous. That being said, I feel that we have every right to love the art, yet hold distaste for the artist. Loving this music a struggle for some of us, myself included.

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  92. You totally missed Douglas P. I have known him for years. It is all much more subtle and complex as racism and Nazis. I wouldn't call him a Satanist either. It more has to do with our individual rights to our own personal experience of life. I kicking against institutions that desire to structure our personal experiences of life, to their advantage. The Fascist energy is a 'pushing back' to this even more devious energy of the status quo. That is why you are never quite honest and resolved in your assessment of DIJ. You still seem reserved to a kernel within it all. I only like one album, myself. The Rule of Thirds. I don't listen to the others.

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Please at least use a pseudonym so it's possible to follow your argument if you make multiple posts